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Blocked by Cloudflare

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Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#231

Post by adammartinetti »

waithuh wrote: post #208
adammartinetti wrote: post #76

Hi there, I'm the PM for Cloudflare's challenge platform. I'd love to look into what the cause of the problem is, so you don't see these difficulties. > Cloudflare detected the high frequency of requests and denials (but not their faulty loop that caused this pattern of requests, of course), and tagged my browser as suspicious. I can tell you at least that we don't penalize users for this looping behavior, so this wo…

I dont know which type of Firefox you use, but any reasonably tuned browser (in the privacy sense) fails your systems. I literally didnt have a single instance of passing them without handing over a pixel perfect fingerprint.

Would you be able to send me a rayID of a failed challenge so I can take a loop? It sounds like you can use https://gitlab.com/users/sign_in to generate one.

You can either reply in the comments with the ID (no PII), or email me at amartinetti at cloudflare.com and I'd love to dig into it.

We're building Turnstile because we want to make challenges a better system than CAPTCHA. It sounds like for you it's worse, and we want to fix that.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#232

Post by HumanOstrich »

Animats wrote: post #100

Suing Cloudflare for interference with contract[1] might be an option. Cloudflare is not protected against lawsuits by some EULA, because the outside user has no contract with them. They're a third party in the middle. Talk to a lawyer. Most contract law lawsuits are settled out of court. The great advantage of suing someone is that you get past the low-level customer support people and talk to someone who's authoriz…

Can you provide examples of people suing Cloudflare to get around being blocked from accessing certain websites?

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#233

Post by adammartinetti »

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #97
adammartinetti wrote: post #76

Hi there, I'm the PM for Cloudflare's challenge platform. I'd love to look into what the cause of the problem is, so you don't see these difficulties. > Cloudflare detected the high frequency of requests and denials (but not their faulty loop that caused this pattern of requests, of course), and tagged my browser as suspicious. I can tell you at least that we don't penalize users for this looping behavior, so this wo…

FWIW I see this with Firefox when I route my traffic through ProtonVPN. It could be caused by someone else's bad behavior on the VPN but I'd hazard a guess that it's more than that.

Do you see the challenge and then you're able to pass? Or does the challenge loop forever?

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#234

Post by adammartinetti »

itscrush wrote: post #82
adammartinetti wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to share a rayID you see during one of these looping challenges? I'm the PM for Cloudflare's challenge platform, and we'd love to look into this. RayIDs contain no PII so you can share publicly, or feel free to drop me an email at amartinetti at cloudflare. We'll also release a reporting mechanism soon, so in the future you can let us know when you see these issues and we can react to them quickl…

Here's some loop samples; - Gitlab; Ray ID: 7f3961b4ec46c443 - Zabbix; Ray ID: 7f39624d982bc32e - NameMC; Ray ID: 7f3962e68d251871 - Camelcamelcamel; Ray ID: 7f3962eb9cbb421f Easily can recreate at least the never ending loop by flipping on ublock origin's 3rd party scripts and 3rd party frame blocking, which matches their recommended medium settings.

Thanks so much to you and everyone else who's supplied these. I'm collecting them now, and the team is looking into this.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#235

Post by dcow »

ipaddr wrote: post #229
dcow wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize with your frustration, but you also have to admit that Cloudflare is tasked with an impossible problem: from a sea of requests, identify those that are coming from robots that are disguised as humans. So there is no perfect solution. You can't use strong identity because a user can share their identity with a robot. You have to use a crapy heuristic that only works most of the time (or tell site owners i…

Why are humans only allowed and shouldn't we be proactive and accept robots as equals now. We have a history of prejudice against groups and we seem clueless that we are heading their again.

Of course I'd agree that if a robot is following the rules and behaving indistinguishably from a human but maybe just a little more quickly, then it shouldn't be pre-judged (and our detection should accommodate). But here we're talking about robots without agency being e.g. used in botnets to abuse services, or otherwise not following the rules.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#236

Post by ipaddr »

WheatMillington wrote: post #145
shiomiru wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cause of the problem is that your software is faulty by design. 1. IP addresses are to be used for packet routing. Certainly not for assigning "behavior scores" to users in the background. IP addresses say nothing about your visitors, my IP address could have been a complete stranger's IP address yesterday. 2. Deciding who can access half the web based on their TLS signature achieves nothing in the long run excep…

You're being a little dramatic. It's incredibly unlikely that millions of innocent users have been blocked, and unless you have data to the contrary you shouldn't make such a claim. You know what else is harmful to the concept of the open internet? The enormous malicious botnets and other endemic problems that require a solution like CloudFlare.

For every one user that makes their way on here and finds and posts here on this thread probably represent 1,000,000 plus normal users

An open web is open for everyone/thing not just classes of beings you select. Bots and users can both be malicious and both can be positive.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#237

Post by warrenm »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #219
warrenm wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He quoted you: >it does seem to indicate that IPv6 is mostly pointless for human users for exactly this reason

> He quoted you: > >it does seem to indicate that IPv6 is mostly pointless for human users for exactly this reason Huh? There is no quote in that comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37051011 . Unless you are referring to a different comment?

I'm referring to your comment that he quoted - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37050359

Maybe you're misremembering - but you wrote it :)

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#238

Post by executesorder66 »

adammartinetti wrote: post #234
itscrush wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some loop samples; - Gitlab; Ray ID: 7f3961b4ec46c443 - Zabbix; Ray ID: 7f39624d982bc32e - NameMC; Ray ID: 7f3962e68d251871 - Camelcamelcamel; Ray ID: 7f3962eb9cbb421f Easily can recreate at least the never ending loop by flipping on ublock origin's 3rd party scripts and 3rd party frame blocking, which matches their recommended medium settings.

Thanks so much to you and everyone else who's supplied these. I'm collecting them now, and the team is looking into this.

It would be nice, once the investigation is concluded, if you guys posted the findings on the cloudflare blog. Otherwise it would just feel like a "your call is very important to us, please hold" kind of situation.

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#239

Post by warrenm »

sophacles wrote: post #230
warrenm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every Cloudflare customer is a company I won't do business with (unless there is absolutely no way around it) Cloudflare is running the single biggest, most blatant man-in-the-middle attack in history, and far too many people are happy about it

In what way is it an attack? (I know what a mitm is, I'm not asking you to explain that - I'm pretty conversant in the concept of a proxy, I'm asking you to explain why it's an attack specifically)

they block and/or slowdown vast swaths of the internet

if that's not an "attack", I don't know what is

Re: Blocked by Cloudflare

#240

Post by thaumaturgy »

sophacles wrote: post #226
thaumaturgy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data point of N+1, but I haven't been able to place online orders at Petco for about a year now because they use some Cloudflare feature that hates my browser + home internet connection. Other Cloudflare-proxied sites seem unaffected, and I'm not doing any botting/crawling, nor do I have any IoT devices on my home network. There's not enough information provided to be able to do any substantive troubleshooting. This…

So you're mad at Cloudflare because Petco enabled a feature that blocked you? If Petco had developed something in-house that blocked you, would you be mad at the compiler?

...no, I've changed my recommendations for Cloudflare because it may prevent ordinary users from using a site, and insufficient information is provided for troubleshooting purposes, and those users are likely not going to go to extraordinary lengths to report the problem. Even if they do report it, the site won't be able to troubleshoot it either. So, if you don't need it, you're probably better off without it.
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