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Your computer should say what you tell it to say

eff.org

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Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#71
>You can choose not to send this to the remote server, but you lose the ability to send an altered or randomized description of your device and its software if you think that's best for you.

The EFF is being misleading here by conflating the attestation taken and fingerprintable information like a user agent. An attestation taken does not contain information about the device that can be used to identify since the data the site gets is low entropy. WEI doesn't stop you from changing your user agent, nor does it prevent you from using your privacy web extentions.

>But, despite their valiant attempts to cast these benefits as accruing to device owners, these are really designed to benefit the owners of commercial services; the benefit to users comes from the assumption that commercial operators will use the additional profits from remote attestation to make their services better for their users.

End users are not the only stake holders in the web. I would say most changes to the web are for people who develop sites and end users benefit from sites using those features.

>Putting handcuffs on every shopper who enters a store would doubtless reduce shoplifting, and stores with less shoplifting might lower their prices, benefitting all of their customers. But ultimately, shoplifting is the store’s problem, not the shoppers’, and it’s not fair for the store to make everyone else bear the cost of resolving its difficulties.

This metaphor isn't the same since WEI is transparent to users. Physical handcuffs would be very intrusive, but that isn't what is happening here. Shop lifting affects the profitablity of the store. A better metaphor would be a bouncer for a club. Technically a club could have a set of rules of entering and customers could promise that they follow them. Unfortunately, people lie and just trusting them isn't good enough so clubs end up adding bouncers even though they don't directly make the experience for customers better.

>The problem is, there are lots of websites that would really, really like the power to dictate what browser and operating system people can use

This claim needs a citation of where user agent based blocking isn't enough. People spoofing their user agent won't make much of a difference to support costs of the site.

>The web is the last major open platform left on the internet - the last platform where anyone can make a browser or a website and participate, without having to ask permission or meet someone else’s specifications.

WEI doesn't prevent you from participating in the web or needing to meet someone else's specification. You can even make an attestation service for your own browser.

>We sympathize with businesses whose revenues might be impacted by ad-fraud, game companies that struggle with cheaters, and services that struggle with bots. But addressing these problems can’t come before the right of technology users to choose how their computers work, or what those computers tell others about them, because the right to control one’s own devices is a building block of all civil rights in the digital world..

To prevent ad fraud either you need to increase the fingerprintablity of users on the web, violating people's privacy, or implemented a form of remote attestation, which protects people's privacy.

If EFF cares no much about privacy on the web they should be in favor of this proposal.

I disagree that beivg a to lie about what your device is running in a building block of all civil rights because the physical analog, fraud, is illegal, and the world seems better without people commuting fraud to one another.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#72

That's a very well-written explanation! I would hope that we see this kind of explanation more frequently.

Nope, not really. Still looks like the equivalent of anti-encryption people saying "think of the children". I still see no explanation on how WEI will magically change the behavior of website operators. They can already take steps to block unwanted clients, but no one is in any significant way which hinders the "open internet". WEI is meaningless unless Apple implements it. The only effect the current discussion will…

> I still see no explanation on how WEI will magically change the behavior of website operators

Google will change the behavior of website operators that use AdSense. They wouldn't want anyone to be artificially inflating their ad revenue with suspicious un-attested traffic: https://blog.google/products/ads-commerce/understanding-acco...

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#73
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wild. It seems these blog posts are outsourced. Edit: I'm wrong about this one. It's an actual article, and a pretty good one at that. But it is either a mistake or they are introducing an alternate expansion for TPM (other acronyms have been given different sets of words).

They don't have to be outsourced to this to happen. To put out lengthy press-releases, you hire a copywriter. You don't ask an engineer to write them. People make mistakes sometimes. And this one is not a huge one -- the meaning is conveyed fine.

I've also seen that exact incorrect explanation of what "TPM" stands for in several other places now. I'm guessing that someone authoritative made the error and now it's being propagated by people who aren't otherwise familiar with the terminology.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#74

I read the entire thing and it’s not clear how this reduces control of your own computer. It seems the premise is that those with a computer should be able to access others servers wholesale unconditionally. This premise is obviously wrong. > It also raises the barrier to entry for new browsers, something Google employees acknowledged in an unofficial explainer for the new feature, Web Environment Integrity (WEI). Th…

> it’s not clear how this reduces control of your own computer. It eliminates a computer user's ability to have their user agent lie about the platform it's operating on. Such a capability is crucial for privacy and adversarial compatibility. Simple example: your bank of choice starts sniffing your UA string and refusing to serve Firefox, as they only test the site in Chrome and don't want to service support tickets…

It absolutely is how it will be used. Try banking on your rooted Android phone, today. That’s the future for banking on the web.

Streaming video sites are another prime example. They serve low resolution video to Linux machines because the DRM won’t attest to a secure video decoder. I’m not sure I look forward to similar discrimination from the entire web.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#75
post #10

I mean, devil's advocate here, this tech already exists and the question is do we do client attestation in a browser or pretend remote attestation doesn't exist. If this gets rejected, would that mean that services that need a "trusted client" simply deprecate their web apps and rely on a iOS/Android app? I'm not trying to argue in favor of WEI, I just think this doesn't magically disappear if Google doesn't implemen…

Yes and that is okay. The Web should remain open and some app stores could be walled gardens.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#76

I read the entire thing and it’s not clear how this reduces control of your own computer. It seems the premise is that those with a computer should be able to access others servers wholesale unconditionally. This premise is obviously wrong. > It also raises the barrier to entry for new browsers, something Google employees acknowledged in an unofficial explainer for the new feature, Web Environment Integrity (WEI). Th…

Imagine this: You buy a house. Your house has a little box by the front door. The box holds a small House Environment Integrity (HEI) module. This HEI is something your local Home Owners Association installed. They say you cannot open the box or investigate how the module inside works, as this is against the HOA and you will be fined. They tell you this HEI module is meant to help and protect you. To make sure the pl…

This is an argument against the TPM, not WEI.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were proposals for protecting against this in the WEI explainer under "Open Questions" https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/...

I skimmed the link you provided, thanks. It looks like they propose to mix false signals to prevent this from being abused, but oh. That's easy to bypass. Require two attestations back to back to see whether they differ, or put up a page saying, "can you please try again?" The open question is circling around the question, can we make it work in a way, such that it doesn't work for bad guys, but works for good guys.…

We can't even agree on who the good guys and bad guys are. Is a bank bad for excluding certain browsers?

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reduces control of my computer because without it my computer can identify itself to websites and advertisers in the way that I want, but with it, it can only use its TPM assigned identity. You can argue (I'd disagree) that it's a good thing that I can't make my computer spoof as something else, but unquestionably it does reduce my control.

> unquestionably it does reduce my control It doesn't reduce your control, you are still welcome to identify your computer however you want to websites by using a browser without WEI or disabling it. You will just have to live with the reality that a lot of servers aren't going to want to talk to your client.

This is always such a bad faith argument. When you have to choose between freedom/privacy and being able to perform daily tasks, that's not a choice, but coercion.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#79
post #47

I read the entire thing and it’s not clear how this reduces control of your own computer. It seems the premise is that those with a computer should be able to access others servers wholesale unconditionally. This premise is obviously wrong. > It also raises the barrier to entry for new browsers, something Google employees acknowledged in an unofficial explainer for the new feature, Web Environment Integrity (WEI). Th…

> it wouldn’t necessarily get rid of an open web as it’s entirely optional The devil is just right there. If an implementor is dominant, and that the feature starts to be used extensively by banks / utility providers or other essential utility, nothing prevent those users to enforce using browsers implementing it, event if it's optional per spec. The feature then become de-facto mandatory for all implementors, and in…

Right. Some people are thinking about this really black-and-white, like you either have control or you don't. In the very end, WEI aims to collectively reduce the users' control.

Re: Your computer should say what you tell it to say

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this: You buy a house. Your house has a little box by the front door. The box holds a small House Environment Integrity (HEI) module. This HEI is something your local Home Owners Association installed. They say you cannot open the box or investigate how the module inside works, as this is against the HOA and you will be fined. They tell you this HEI module is meant to help and protect you. To make sure the pl…

This is an argument against the TPM, not WEI.

WEI is a mechanism that forces you to let websites use the TPM to stop and frisk your machine before access. There’s no difference.
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