Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

blog.zoom.us

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 185 posts

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#61

Post by rpgbr »

bluefishinit wrote: post #16

> Section 10.2 covers that there is certain information about how our customers in the aggregate use our product — telemetry, diagnostic data, etc. This is commonly known as service generated data. We wanted to be transparent that we consider this to be our data so that we can use service generated data to make the user experience better for everyone on our platform. Well, I consider that to be my data and actually i…

I guess you'll have a hard time trying to find a service, video calls and else, that doesn't have terms similar to these.

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#62

Post by bluefishinit »

rpgbr wrote: post #61
bluefishinit wrote: post #16

> Section 10.2 covers that there is certain information about how our customers in the aggregate use our product — telemetry, diagnostic data, etc. This is commonly known as service generated data. We wanted to be transparent that we consider this to be our data so that we can use service generated data to make the user experience better for everyone on our platform. Well, I consider that to be my data and actually i…

I guess you'll have a hard time trying to find a service, video calls and else, that doesn't have terms similar to these.

It's definitely a challenge, but another good thing about HN is people link alternatives in threads like this. I'm already checking out Jitsi (mentioned up thread) and it looks awesome. It's even open source:

https://jitsi.org/

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#63

Post by motoxpro »

bluefishinit wrote: post #26
lolinder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity—did you cancel the account in April when they changed the terms, or in August when people finally noticed?

August, when I saw the changes. I have to admit I'm not babysitting all of our vendor's TOS so am glad these things get surfaced on HN.

You don't use any service that has analytics or internal error reporting? So no AWS, GCP, Cloudflare, MS Office, etc?

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#64

Post by jonplackett »

Animats wrote: post #46
Imnimo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if the TOS says one thing, and a blogpost pinky-promises another, only one of those two actually counts as far as I'm concerned.

The AI part isn't the bad part. It's the "use for marketing", like gMail. One implication is that lawyers can no longer use Zoom for anything which is attorney-client privileged.

How does this add up with E2EE?

They claim they can’t read anything passing through the server. Is there some other way they’ll get access?

https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360048660871-End-t....

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#65

Post by bluefishinit »

motoxpro wrote: post #63
bluefishinit wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

August, when I saw the changes. I have to admit I'm not babysitting all of our vendor's TOS so am glad these things get surfaced on HN.

You don't use any service that has analytics or internal error reporting? So no AWS, GCP, Cloudflare, MS Office, etc?

I can't help but use AWS but I definitely don't use that other stuff. That it's laden with spyware is one of the main reasons.

Especially for video communication, I'm not going to let some 3rd party spy on me and my business if I don't have to.

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#66

Post by kornhole »

Nextcloud Talk has no TOS AFAIK. It is FOSS and self-hosted. Nextcloud AI tools run on your instance with the exception of the optional OpenAI plugin app. They are developing further FOSS AI models to replace those. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14gSiyAl9Fw

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#67

Post by sean_hogle »

Zoom's lawyers are trying to pull a fast one with these revised Terms. The new sentence on user consent being required to train AIs applies only to "Customer Content," not "Service Generated Data."

In sec. 10.4, Zoom says "... Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent."

Customer Content is defined in 10.1 and is broadly worded. But the first sentence of sec. 10.2 clearly states that "Customer Content" does NOT include "Service Generated Data."

Therein lies the rub. "Service Generated Data" = "any telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and similar content or data that Zoom collects or generates in connection with your or your End Users’ use of the Services ...." (sec. 10.2).

Zoom is allowed to use Service Generated Data for any purpose (sec. 10.2) because it is not "Customer Content."

This "clarification" does nothing meaningful to assuage the serious data privacy concerns posed by Zoom's use of captured user video content.

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#68

Post by 14 »

Animats wrote: post #46
Imnimo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if the TOS says one thing, and a blogpost pinky-promises another, only one of those two actually counts as far as I'm concerned.

The AI part isn't the bad part. It's the "use for marketing", like gMail. One implication is that lawyers can no longer use Zoom for anything which is attorney-client privileged.

I have not had a chance to read up on this yet but does zoom not have a paid version or corporate version that would not follow under these same TOS? If not it seems crazy like a shot in the foot because lots of businesses use zoom and I know most want or are required to use privacy preserving programs.

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#69

Post by singleshot_ »

lolinder wrote: post #53
singleshot_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I get that you’re downvoting and contradicting, but are you sure we don’t agree? Let’s put it this way: I was observing precisely what you copied and pasted: this is a perfectly valid way to write a contract if you subsequently want to be able to argue either side. Was zoom careful to be sure any usage can’t be read as merely describing future events? Will ambiguity exist until this agreement is tested ?

Given that they use "Zoom will" 21 times in the document to clearly refer to their obligations—including 4 times in the paragraph entitled "10.5 Our Obligations Over Your Customer Content"—I seriously doubt they're counting on or will get points for any ambiguity. Meanwhile not once do they use "Zoom shall". It's pretty clearly just a stylistic choice and not anything sneaky. Edit: They even use "will" in the all-imp…

I stand corrected. I suppose reading the contract instead of snarking might have allowed me to avoid the embarrassment. Thank you.

Re: How Zoom’s terms of service and practices apply to AI features

#70

Post by janalsncm »

bluefishinit wrote: post #26
lolinder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity—did you cancel the account in April when they changed the terms, or in August when people finally noticed?

August, when I saw the changes. I have to admit I'm not babysitting all of our vendor's TOS so am glad these things get surfaced on HN.

It would be great if there was a tool that could compare TOS of many services and tell me what changed since the last version. Basically diff the two.

There’s already tosdr.org but I’m not sure they have that feature.

Post reply on HN