Why I Left Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Left Google

#201

Post by michaelochurch » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:40 PM UTC

anthonydchang wrote: post #195

michaelochurch wrote: post #165

To understand why Google isn't what it used to be, one has to understand what happened in 2009-2011. This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. If Google had told them to wipe their fucking feet off before tracking shitty culture into the place, it might have survived. It didn't. Google has an immense amount of talent "under…

You are truly either delusional or an attention-monger that needs to troll to feel better about yourself. Like cletus mentioned, many people reached out to offer you constructive advice. You ignored everyone, thought yourself superior to everyone. I bet you were just waiting to be the first to comment, no? You did well...not only did you throw Google under the bus, you also threw California under the bus. Learn to ha…

I'm going to take you seriously even though you don't deserve it.

Any rip on a state with 50 million people in it is somewhat in jest. Anyway, there are a lot of great things about "California culture". When applied to technology, an open-minded and experimental "Let's try it" mentality is great. Necessary, even. When applied to management without enough attention paid to the fact that some of the people posing ideas have bad intentions, some awful ideas get into implementation and it damages companies. It hurts people. So more conservatism in selecting what to implement is in order, and discussing ideas that might be harmful (with thousands of people) until they've been explored is a bad idea.

The problem with Google is that it's got the conservative New York culture technically (I mean, even Scala isn't allowed) and the California culture with respect to hare-brained managerial ideas like downslotting-- the exact opposite of how things should be.

Put it this way: technological and managerial innovation are utterly different. If you do a tech demo and it's slightly rough around the edges, that's fine. You're awesome for having the courage to put yourself out there. If you're putting forward suggestions that are going to affect the way thousands of people work, the traditionally sloppy (for tech, I mean "sloppy" in a positive sense) tech demo is not how you should be communicating.

Re: Why I Left Google

#202

Post by philwelch » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:44 PM UTC

jfager wrote: post #91

jmduke wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. Building a product in a category that is already owned by another brand without positioning themselves opposite it. > This is classic... Burger King will never take over Mcdonalds market share because they are trying to convince people that they are better. Since the category is owned already, they need to claim, "We are different" For what it's worth, Apple's Jon Ive completely disagrees with you: http://www.th…

The entrenched winner in the late 90s right before Apple's resurgence was Wintel - cheap and everywhere. What does Apple do to compete? The name of the campaign was literally what the parent comment says a company needs to do - "Think Different" - backed by a line of products that were completely different than Windows: colorful vs beige, whole-stack vs licensed out to third-party manufacturers, premium vs commodity.…

But what Apple did to Microsoft and Dell is make a better product, which is exactly what Jony Ive is talking about.

Re: Why I Left Google

#203

Post by packetslave » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:47 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #165

To understand why Google isn't what it used to be, one has to understand what happened in 2009-2011. This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. If Google had told them to wipe their fucking feet off before tracking shitty culture into the place, it might have survived. It didn't. Google has an immense amount of talent "under…

To understand why Google isn't what it used to be, one has to understand what happened in 2009-2011. This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. If Google had told them to wipe their fucking feet off before tracking shitty culture into the place, it might have survived. It didn't.

You were only there for 6 months in 2011. That hardly makes you an authority on what happened in 2009-2011, or about how the company is managed. Perhaps it's time to consider the possibility that the problem was more with yourself than with Google.

Re: Why I Left Google

#204

Post by philwelch » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:48 PM UTC

nextparadigms wrote: post #75

CurtHagenlocher wrote: post #56

As a Microsoft employee, I wish this hadn't been posted to a Microsoft-branded website. Other than that, I thought it was an interesting perspective and I loved the money quote: "I couldn’t even get my own teenage daughter to look at Google+ twice, “social isn’t a product,” she told me after I gave her a demo, “social is people and the people are on Facebook.”"

But "the people" were on Myspace, Hi5, Friendster and other social networks before Facebook - hundreds of millions of them. So clearly it's something about the product, too.

Except if you go backwards from Facebook, there was at least an order of magnitude fewer people on MySpace, at least an order of magnitude fewer than that on Hi5 or Friendster, and so forth. Facebook reached a critical mass that the others never did.

Re: Why I Left Google

#205

Post by edwardw » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:51 PM UTC

anthonydchang wrote: post #199

edwardw wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@anthonydchang No, I never received such emails. My manager and / or HR never bother. When I discovered this accidently after I left, I complained by submitting a ticket. But you know what, almost whole managements at that subsidiary (read: Google China) has been sacked. So nobody could care less about it. I must say working for Google is THE worst working experience for me.

Even without the emails, there are the links on the left in Perf that you can see your peer and manager reviews. Unless you're telling me Google China used a different Perf. I'm sorry to hear that you feel your time at Google is the worst experience for you, but your story just doesn't make sense. How can you submit a ticket after you left? Were you in eng? Did you not see mchurch's delusional rants and all the peopl…

The only reason I visited my personal profile was to write weekly snippet. So no, I didn't pay attention to the links you mentioned if there were no Perf emails to remind me.

I submitted a ticket from outside as an alumnus. It is a fact. Credit to Google for setting this up. That being said, if there is anyone gets delusional, it is you.

I'm an engineer and used to work for Sun Microsystems. It was awesome. So I have pretty good idea about what it takes and what to expect working for a good silicon valley company in general, including Google. It just didn't apply to what happened to me in Google.

Re: Why I Left Google

#206

Post by nine_k » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 4:59 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #165

To understand why Google isn't what it used to be, one has to understand what happened in 2009-2011. This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel. If Google had told them to wipe their fucking feet off before tracking shitty culture into the place, it might have survived. It didn't. Google has an immense amount of talent "under…

Hmm. I see (and write) some Python around me. I see a lot of Scala around me. And it's production code, actively developed, not phased out. I also keep hearing about Go.

Of course, I'm a mere contractor, I don't see the bigger picture, and all. But I _hope_ that on the language front things are not as grim.

Re: Why I Left Google

#207

Post by beatle » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #181

cletus wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with blog posts like this one is that they're largely ignored for their content. Instead, those with an agenda or an axe to grind (on either side) come out of the woodwork. Your comment is a case in point. Anyone familiar with your story (at Google and, as you know, there are many of us who are) knows how totally skewed your perception is. Many people (including me) tried to offer you constructive advice.…

You mischaracterize the slotting process, which is now largely gone anyway (and you should know this so I'm not sure why you're bring it up as if it were a present problem) I said that they got rid of it, but I think the fact that such an obviously bad idea could get in the door in the first place is symptomatic of out-of-touch managers, and the same people are still there-- just coming up with new bad ideas (like th…

>This is the era when Google decided to get "real managers" and they hired a bunch of executives from places like Oracle, IBM, and Intel.

Wrong. The problem with Google started with the new CEO. The decision to focus on Facebook, the Motorola acquisition, Google+, integration across all Google products and services,etc. these are not mid-level management decisions. These are decisions made by Larry Page.

The problem is with the CEO.

Re: Why I Left Google

#208

Post by philwelch » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

koalaman wrote: post #122

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #92

Larry Page is killing his company to chase after a market that is less profitable that the one he currently owns.

Larry Page, like anybody else with any chops in the business, understands that the internet is about communication, and communication is about identity, data, and a sharing protocol. If Facebook owns those things, they own everything. As long as all the users are on one identity and sharing platform you can develop all the open social APIs you want but it's totally pointless. We need at least a duopoly and angry user…

I'm reminded of the term "architecture astronaut". When you're discussing business strategy in highly abstract terms, I'm not sure whether you're onto something or whether you're being a business strategy astronaut.

At first blush, Facebook's got a stronger foothold in "identity, data, and a sharing protocol". At second blush, they still make less revenue/profit than Google, which in turns makes less revenue/profit than Apple. And it's hard to see how that will change without flying up into the stratosphere talking about ungrounded abstractions.

Facebook gets more buzz and is considered hotter shit because it's newer. It doesn't mean anything.

What does mean something is that Facebook can provide targeted advertising, and obviously an amalgam of Facebook and Google could provide the most targeted advertising. For instance, if I googled something about online dating but my Google+ account said I was married, the CPC/CPM on Adwords for my search should be different than if my Google+ account said I was single. If Google has any business sense, Google+ is about targeted SERPs and targeted advertising, it's not about vague abstractions that may or may not have anything to do with turning a profit.

Re: Why I Left Google

#209

Post by anthonydchang » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #201

anthonydchang wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are truly either delusional or an attention-monger that needs to troll to feel better about yourself. Like cletus mentioned, many people reached out to offer you constructive advice. You ignored everyone, thought yourself superior to everyone. I bet you were just waiting to be the first to comment, no? You did well...not only did you throw Google under the bus, you also threw California under the bus. Learn to ha…

I'm going to take you seriously even though you don't deserve it. Any rip on a state with 50 million people in it is somewhat in jest. Anyway, there are a lot of great things about "California culture". When applied to technology, an open-minded and experimental "Let's try it" mentality is great. Necessary, even. When applied to management without enough attention paid to the fact that some of the people posing ideas…

"I'm going to take you seriously even though you don't deserve it." --- wow, gee thanks!

You feeling slighted because you weren't "consulted," because you perceive yourself as a thought-leader for having developed a card game with 10k players, and then subsequently bashing other Googlers that had much more accomplishments than you, calling them obsolete...that does not win you any friends at any company. It is not about the status quo; it's about you being a disrespectful little dipshit. It's about you making statements like "Fucking California culture" and then trying to brush it off by saying "Oh, what are you, too stupid to realize that it was in jest?" Say what you fucking mean, or don't fucking say it.

Oh yeah, and spending 5 months at Google makes you a Google expert.

Re: Why I Left Google

#210

Post by daviticus » Wed, Mar 14, 2012, 5:22 PM UTC

edwardw wrote: post #205

anthonydchang wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even without the emails, there are the links on the left in Perf that you can see your peer and manager reviews. Unless you're telling me Google China used a different Perf. I'm sorry to hear that you feel your time at Google is the worst experience for you, but your story just doesn't make sense. How can you submit a ticket after you left? Were you in eng? Did you not see mchurch's delusional rants and all the peopl…

The only reason I visited my personal profile was to write weekly snippet. So no, I didn't pay attention to the links you mentioned if there were no Perf emails to remind me. I submitted a ticket from outside as an alumnus. It is a fact. Credit to Google for setting this up. That being said, if there is anyone gets delusional, it is you. I'm an engineer and used to work for Sun Microsystems. It was awesome. So I have…

No, GP is right, your story seems odd. I'm not saying it's false, but it certainly isn't related to what mchurch is talking about. If you visited the perf website (which you have to do at least every year), then you saw the "Received feedback" link at the top of the page. If you were bothered by not knowing your performance results, you should have clicked that link.

Saying you didn't explore your personal profile or look at the perf website and then complaining that you never knew your performance scores is like saying you never visited your calendar page and being upset about not knowing your meeting schedule.

It sounds like you may have had issues with poor management, but the fact that you didn't know your performance scores has nothing to do with mchurch's fictional manager retaliation, nor is it common for managers to blackmail their reports with poor perf scores over differences of opinion the way he alleges.