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Not Using Zoom

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Re: Not Using Zoom

#131

Post by EGreg »

_joel wrote: post #119
EGreg wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So with no TURN, how does Jitsi work with people behind a firewall / NAT?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STUN

I don't think you understand my question. STUN is only for setting up the connection. With Trickle ICE etc. But after that, who actually proxies the video that is being sent between the WebRTC endpoints? You need TURN servers for that! Without them, people behind a firewall wouldn't be able to actually receive any audio/video streams from Jitsi. So how would it work without TURN?

Re: Not Using Zoom

#132

Post by EGreg »

aaomidi wrote: post #33
EGreg wrote: post #12

OK big question If Jitsi doesn't require a user account, how do they prevent a bunch of random bots using up all their resources with sybil attacks? How do they pay for all that bandwidth, for TURN servers etc? What are the economics of it basically

Being self hosted reduces a lot of that problem.

We're asking about their central servers, if they don't require an account to be set up, how do they prevent sybil attacks?

Re: Not Using Zoom

#133

Post by user6723 »

michael_adams12 wrote: post #129

This is Michael Adams, Zoom’s CISO. I want to reiterate our thanks for your feedback and emphasize our continuing commitment to protecting our customers’ data as we make exciting improvements to Zoom products. At Zoom, we do not use customer audio, video, and chat to train our generative AI models without customer consent. You can learn more about enabling generative AI features, consent, and notice here: https://blo…

The world is waiting for your user-facing legal agreements to reflect this.

Explicitly stating that user data will not be used unless someone affirmatively opts-in in the agreement would be a good step.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#134

Post by higeorge13 »

lucideer wrote: post #91

I see 4 competitors in this space (consumer video-conferencing SaaS): - Zoom - Google Meet - MS Teams - Jitsi (free) I try and avoid Google products where I can but it seems like the least worst option here (I use Jitsi when I can but it's limited). Is there a 5th option out there? I have tried Discord, it's reasonable, but the UX is kinda crazy for anyone not used to it - very hard to convince non-gamers to use it.

We also use whereby at work, but we are a small company.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#135

Post by remram »

screamingninja wrote: post #80
lifeinthevoid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoom End-to-End encryption should theoretically not allow Zoom to see any of the content no?

There was a big controversy around Zoom calling it E2E with their server being one of the ends. Not sure what their new narrative is but I do not trust Zoom to do the right thing regardless.

Cloudflare does the same thing.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#136

Post by numbsafari »

amelius wrote: post #77

I feel like we are dangerously close to the situation where companies don't even put this in the ToS. "Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission." See also Uber, who broke the rules and got away with it, and in fact built their empire on top of breaking the law. We should not let companies get away with this. In fact, CEOs of such companies should face prison time. Otherwise it would be too easy to steal your…

I think it is worse than that. I think it is already happening.

At the very least, it is happening internally in R&D projects and there will be a raft a roll-outs. How many of those will be floated quietly for "testing" purposes before being rolled out in a public way? Will ToS be updated to reflect it?

We have already seen with Microsoft, that they are more than willing to implement and train these kinds of systems and roll them out without any kind of opt-in or up-front disclosure. And if you don't like it, you can just stop using O365, GitHub, Azure, etc. Good luck with that. You've got to convince the higher-ups that this is a real issue that they should absolutely care about. For many organizations, you just aren't going to get traction there because they likely own a bunch of MS stock and are happy to see the value extracted from their own company if it boosts their net worth in other ways.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#137

Post by inglor »

EGreg wrote: post #131
_joel wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STUN

I don't think you understand my question. STUN is only for setting up the connection. With Trickle ICE etc. But after that, who actually proxies the video that is being sent between the WebRTC endpoints? You need TURN servers for that! Without them, people behind a firewall wouldn't be able to actually receive any audio/video streams from Jitsi. So how would it work without TURN?

> people behind a firewall wouldn't be able to actually receive any audio/video streams from Jitsi.

That part isn't really correct? Most firewalls block incoming connections not outgoing ones so both parties agree on a port, hole punching happens and then there is a connection is formed.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#138

Post by mnw21cam »

amoss wrote: post #108
KingOfCoders wrote: post #70

My problem as a coach is, everything else is bad. Google Meet video quality feels like the 90s, they optimize for traffic costs. MS Teams is not easily usable from a meeting URL, but quality is higher than Google Meet. Other offers are often unreliable or low quality. When working with a trainer for my language/pronunciation I also found out that many solutions have abysmal sound quality, Zoom is best by far.

> MS Teams is not easily usable from a meeting URL Why not? You click on the link and if Teams is installed it opens the local copy. If not then you can do the call in a browser. What is the difficulty?

No. I have Teams installed, but if I click on a Teams link in the Teams app, it opens the meeting in the web browser. There was a decent stretch of time where it would go through a fail-loop in the browser before finally suggesting trying the meeting in the app instead, which wasn't actually possible because of the above. I'm really struggling to comprehend how messed up the development team can be to have a product as awful as that.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#139

Post by mnw21cam »

michael_adams12 wrote: post #129

This is Michael Adams, Zoom’s CISO. I want to reiterate our thanks for your feedback and emphasize our continuing commitment to protecting our customers’ data as we make exciting improvements to Zoom products. At Zoom, we do not use customer audio, video, and chat to train our generative AI models without customer consent. You can learn more about enabling generative AI features, consent, and notice here: https://blo…

That "without customer consent" bit is probably doing a whole load of heavy lifting.

Re: Not Using Zoom

#140

Post by SparkyMcUnicorn »

dealuromanet wrote: post #49
smithcoin wrote: post #2

Are meet’s terms any better?

This is what I found from searching, but we do need a more clear and direct answer from Google. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/9852160#zippy=%2Cpriv... "Google does not store video, audio, or chat data unless a meeting participant initiates a recording during the Meet session."

Meet also offers client-side encryption for "Enterprise" level accounts.

https://support.google.com/meet/answer/11605714?hl=en&ref_to...

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