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I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

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Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#421

Post by sarchertech »

baby wrote: post #404
KoftaBob wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would floss not add any value? It literally removes food particles that otherwise would feed bacteria that cause cavities and bad breath. It was hard to take the rest of your comment seriously after that, and only reinforces the “europeans have bad teeth” stereotype.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/tossing-flossing-2016081... . > the authors of these guidelines could not find convincing evidence to support flossing, and the guidelines are supposed to be evidence-based. According to reviews of the evidence published in 2011 and 2015, there is minimal, short-term, and generally unreliable evidence that flossing might reduce gum inflammation, but no convincing evidence that it p…

Reread your article. There’s no evidence that “brush your teeth and you’ll be fine”. There’s no good evidence that flossing is effective because there are nearly no large randomized controlled studies of flossing. Nearly all of the studies rely on self reporting.

Flossing isn’t some kind of conspiracy. Dentists make no money off it. Many dental associations and government agencies outside of the US recommended it. Dental hygienist can frequently tell when you don’t floss because flossing reduces bleeding gums.

Bleeding gums are correlated with all kinds of poor health outcomes.

Furthermore The proposed mechanism of action for improving gum health is plausible and reasonable. We know that food stuck between teeth leads to gum inflammation—it is very reasonable that removing that food is beneficial.

There is no conclusive peer reviewed evidence that wiping your ass is beneficial either.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#422

Post by no_butterscotch »

jahewson wrote: post #376
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very true. I had a SO with severe chronic gastric pain and they got passed around by doctors for years. One jerk wrote "drug seeking behavior" into her file and that made things even worse. Finally someone took her seriously, got imagery done, and discovered surgery was necessary. In US healthcare you have to be your own advocate and be willing to push. The system breaks down if you don't have a routine and o…

I moved from the U.K. to the US and the situation is even worse in the UK. Unless you’re bleeding or have cancer it’s basically “please go away”.

So much he said she said is the UK better than us with healthcare or not?!

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#423

Post by prawn »

chrismarlow9 wrote: post #186
basisword wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry. Ask anybody who’s experienced a “chronic” illness about the “experts” and they’ll tell you a tale or two. The experts are great until they have a case that is unusual. The don’t have the time or know…

Same experience here. My analysis is it's a money milking scheme between groups of doctors. Pass you around so everyone gets a cut and they cross refer people to scratch each other's backs. Surgeon refers you to pain management and pain management refers you to surgeon. Add in a physical therapist, testing facility, and chiropractor and you got a pretty lucrative meshnet of referrals going.

Most of the complaints I read in this conversation have been about people NOT getting referred for scans when they've reported discomfort!

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#424

Post by prawn »

maeil wrote: post #212
chrismarlow9 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same experience here. My analysis is it's a money milking scheme between groups of doctors. Pass you around so everyone gets a cut and they cross refer people to scratch each other's backs. Surgeon refers you to pain management and pain management refers you to surgeon. Add in a physical therapist, testing facility, and chiropractor and you got a pretty lucrative meshnet of referrals going.

While this might happen, it's certainly a tiny minority of cases. In most cases it's just too big of an ego to admit that they really don't know, and not willing (private practice) or unable to (employed by a big hospital) spend the large amount of time needed to raise the chance of finding the cause from 0% to maybe 2%. Truth is that modern medicine still knows much less than is often assumed, let alone individual d…

If various scans were more readily available, quick and cheap, I wonder how far these guesswork scenarios would be improved? Rather than having to get a referral and separate appointment and waiting period for bloodwork or colonoscopy or whatever else.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#426

Post by yoz »

JenrHywy wrote: post #408
basisword wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry. Ask anybody who’s experienced a “chronic” illness about the “experts” and they’ll tell you a tale or two. The experts are great until they have a case that is unusual. The don’t have the time or know…

I had a neurologist tell me that the scans he'd performed proved that there was nothing wrong with my wife, and he didn't know why she was choosing to act as though she had a neurological issue. In neurology at least, I think a lot of the problem is that everyone is hyper-specialized. Luckily for us, my wife's insurance company convinced a generalist neurologist to come out of retirement and examine her, which put us…

It's particularly bad when it comes to treating women.

Doctors tend to believe that female patients exaggerate pain in comparison to male patients, in accordance with stereotypes that portray men as "stoic" and women as "emotional". The bias is systemic, with female doctors often assuming the stereotype too[1].

You can trace this bias back through medical literature which (often subconsciously) reiterates these stereotypes[2]. It shows up in many statistics, such as the difference in wait times for analgesics: women reporting pain had to wait an average of 30% longer than men.[3]

But a key cause of the problem is worse than just assumption of stereotypes: it's that modern medicine still knows far more about men than it does women. For centuries, the primary medical research and literature was done by men, about men, for the treatment of men. Most of the clinical trials performed in the 20th century enrolled far fewer women than men, and often _none at all_.[4]

Of course, gender is not the only bias that shows up in medicine. Age, race, (dis)ability, body shape, and economic/social status are all useful factors to keep in mind when considering why certain people, even entire sectors of society, aren't getting the treatment they should.

- [1] https://www.dovepress.com/the-roles-of-gender-and-profession... - [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5845507/ - [3] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1553-2712... - [4] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/13/the-fem...

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#427

Post by KRAKRISMOTT »

kzrdude wrote: post #392
pfisherman wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that I think people need to understand is the distinction between science and the practice of medicine. The practice of medicine is not science. The practice of medicine can be informed by science - to a degree that is almost entirely up to the practitioner. ; but it remains more art than science. The distinction is similar to that between an aviation maintenance and aerospace engineering. Sometimes doctors…

Do doctors know this? We need to tell them they need to practice at the art, to get better at it.

They are bound by regulations and liability, your typical GPs and even the specialists can't greenlight experiments outside of big research hospitals. Medicine and clinical diagnosis are heavily regulated. That's also why you rarely see single author papers in practical clinical medicine. Doctors are busy people, with horrendous work life balance. Most software engineers have it way easier, you get to choose your tools and you get to choose where you want to work. In the business of software engineering, a sufficiently senior engineer can get away with a lot of nonsense without risk of lawsuits.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#428

Post by fma »

jeffmcmahan wrote: post #52

Took my 7 year old daughter to a dentist. 8 cavities. Gotta get em right away! Went to another one. All good - zero cavities. Many dentists are criminals willing to drill holes in children's teeth in order fraudulently take your money. She's now 15. Never had a cavity ever.

Been taking my 2 daughters to a pediatric dentist since they started about to have teeth. Our eldest had cavities, which we could visually see. We were very careful with the youngest, brushing and flossing more. And well, she has even MORE cavities. They are between the teeth - which I guess, well, trust the experts. The fillings expensive aren't that expensive as dental insurance covers it.

Whats expensive is the nitrox oxide which the kids require because they can't sit still. Or maybe the dentist isn't good at her job and can't do it without it. This is 100% out of pocket. Insurance doesn't cover it. and the dentist can set whatever the price they want. This costs $100.

The kids for sure, fight and the dentist is in there trying to get them to open their mouth. Well, my youngest had 5 cavities, and only 2 got filled because of her small mouth and not comfortable.

You know what that means...more money to shell out because now she needs sedation. And that's $400, for a little drink that's like "Benadryl" as the dentist said...and it barely worked. The last filling couldn't be filled.

If we were more knowledgeable we would have just given her melatonin before the first procedure as that's more effective in calming her.

Oh and I found out the dentist is closed on Fridays. Must be nice to be able to charge so much you can pay yourself, staff the needed salaries and only work 4 days.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#430

Post by matheusmoreira »

Waterluvian wrote: post #47

My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meanderi…

> I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision).

The whole point of consulting a professional is so they can provide you with the necessary information to make important decisions. It's up to them to explain things to you so that you understand well enough to make an informed decision.

Unsatisfactory, meandering answers means you aren't getting the information you need to decide and you should absolutely seek another professional until you find one you trust. In fact, when we don't know something, the professional thing to do is to admit it and refer you to another professional who does.

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