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I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

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Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I’m not a conspiracy nut. I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). I believe in modern medicine. But that experience shook me and forever changed my trust in the dental industry. Ask anybody who’s experienced a “chronic” illness about the “experts” and they’ll tell you a tale or two. The experts are great until they have a case that is unusual. The don’t have the time or know…

Same experience here. My analysis is it's a money milking scheme between groups of doctors. Pass you around so everyone gets a cut and they cross refer people to scratch each other's backs. Surgeon refers you to pain management and pain management refers you to surgeon. Add in a physical therapist, testing facility, and chiropractor and you got a pretty lucrative meshnet of referrals going.

Tbf in my case this was NHS so no money to be made by referrals afaik. It mostly seems to be a lack of up-to date knowledge paired with a reluctance to take the initiative and research the latest information for a specific case. As a substitute they refer you up the chain where the same problem also exists.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#192

I've posted this before, but I went to a new dentist one time and though I'd never had a cavity, the new dentist said I had nine, some of which were pretty bad and needed immediate treatment lest they require a root canal. I didn't have any money or dental insurance at the time, so I didn't go back and just worried about it a lot for a while. That was twenty-five years ago. Haven't been to a dentist since. My teeth a…

No one becomes a dentist because they're keen to pull shards of chalk-soft teeth from senior's mouths or enjoy dealing with the scent of rot from infection. It's a career for the money and it's rather easy to find dentists which are optimising for that.

In medicine you treat the patient, not the picture. If your teeth seem fine, they probably are fine.

You will always hear a lot of differing opinions about this from health care professionals and there are of course exceptions, but exceptions are exceptions. You must keep in mind that HCPs are people that see a disproportionate number of very unwell people and they are not immune to bias.

Because of this bias, a common phrase in medicine is if you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras. It's a way of saying that most symptoms you see will be from ordinary ailments. I can think of too many cases where patients went through needless testing and anxiety only to eventually discover that it was all for nothing.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#193
post #113

My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meanderi…

The same is true for healthcare generally in my experience. Very bad advice is often given. I can't really common about the US, but here in the UK the quality of healthcare is shocking bad. Although we may have the opposite problem, where instead of doing unnecessary procedures to increase costs, the NHS generally tries to avoid doing anything unless you're dying. I had some pain in my abdomen a few years back and ha…

I lived in Argentina for a few years. There are plenty of problems with their public healthcare system that pretty much mirror any country with a troubled economy, but one day a work colleague recommended I visit the Favoloro Institute. I’ve never seen such an impressive healthcare organization in my life.

They time their appointments ever 2 minutes so you’re expected to arrive early. Once you start, they wiz you around to about a dozen tests including getting hooked up to electrodes while running on a treadmill. After less than an hour you see a doctor who goes through everything for about 15 very detailed and thoughtful minutes.

The entire thing is FREE! Completely publicly funded.

I don’t know much about healthcare but this type of thing always struck me as a missing apparatus of healthcare in the US. Although apparently Favoloro (who invented some kind of bypass surgery) founded the Institute after being inspired by the Cleveland Clinic.

Would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this because I tell that story all the time!

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I believe in listening to experts (but ultimately making an informed decision). The problem for the most part in all industries is we have moved from a system of experts to a system of credentials. Now one would say that in order to get a credential in something one must be an "expert" but this is far far from the truth, there are all kinds of competing incentives to ensure an ever increasing supply of "credentiale…

> Consumers often lack the resources, information, or decisions tree in most instances to look for any indicators of actual knowledge in the field beyond that credential This is true. I have no clue how to check the expertise of my dentist, apart from using my own mental bullshit detector (of limited use here) and reading reviews by others (also of questionable use, because who reviews their dentist? And where?). The…

>>expensive products with the property that they usually work well, but sometimes become flaky. Think a washing machine.

that is a different problem, consumerism killed that. There used to be several media companies that focused on long term durability of "durable goods" like washing machines and such

But today most people buy new appliances not when they fail but when they need to upgrade to the latest technology, or because new government regulations makes them unfeasible to use / service, or because the Calendar function on their smart fridge does not work with google cloud anymore (true story), etc...

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#195
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is true for healthcare generally in my experience. Very bad advice is often given. I can't really common about the US, but here in the UK the quality of healthcare is shocking bad. Although we may have the opposite problem, where instead of doing unnecessary procedures to increase costs, the NHS generally tries to avoid doing anything unless you're dying. I had some pain in my abdomen a few years back and ha…

>> It doesn't really matter if you see the best doctor in the world, if they can't spent the time and money running the tests you need you're not going to get a good diagnosis. Everyone in the UK should get to experience a private consultation just once. The difference between the rushed 10mins you get with the NHS and the considered 30mins you get private is amazing. You leave feeling like you’ve been taken care of…

I believe the NHS is seriously under-funded, the Tory government is responsible, and healthcare is suffering as a result.

However, I do want to provide an anecdote to illustrate that private healthcare is not perfect. I had some persistent pain in my foot. Realized I wouldn't get anywhere with the NHS so I went private. The person I saw had an excellent manner. They suggested some fairly gnarly surgery. Said I should think about it and in the meantime they gave me an anti-inflammatory injection. My problem cleared up in about two weeks. What was wrong: I have really really wide feet (seriously; they are wider than the widest setting on the foot measuring device they use at shoe shops.) I didn't know this. I was wearing Chuck Taylors, which are very narrow, and they were pinching my feet. I didn't wear my Chucks over the two weeks and I figured out what was wrong in that time. What I learned: everyone has a toolbox they want to reach into. In this case I was seen by a surgeon so they of course turned to surgery as solution. Always be your own advocate, to the best of your ability, in healthcare. (I thought the surgeon might have said something about the width of my feet given they spent so much time looking at feet.)

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Went to a new dentist after moving. She found two "small spots that could go bad if left untreated!" and "should be drilled and filled!". A year later I am still in pain some time. Dentists are fucking psychopaths and we are literally cattle at their mercy. I have no idea how to continue, how to find a dentist I can trust with my stupid teeth. I am terribly afraid of them now.

Find a dentist that'll actually do x-rays and show you the cavity on them. Mine does that. The cavities show pretty relatively easily on x-rays because the tooth density is compromised. If you are in pain, they either damaged the nerve which is bad as that could require a root canal eventually. Or they failed to clean out the cavity and it's infected. Either way, you should experiment with finding a dentist, perhaps…

Yeah next time I will get a second opinion. My old family dentist said everything was fine after I went back to her, so I don‘t think there is infection, also, my CRP is very low.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#197
Might as well add my anecdote to the fray: no cavities for decades, perfect teeth. I move and get a new dentist. Suddenly I have a cavity! She “fixed” the back molar and it has given me nonstop pain ever since then.

Like someone else mentioned on here, I’m disinclined to believe in conspiracy theories, but I do believe there is a massive amount of incompetence and irreproducibility in the practice of medicine. It’s not rigorous science by any stretch.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found your comment a bit hard to follow. Did you just blame "ganst" (sic) rap for the increase in diagnosis of gender dysphoria? How does that work?

For those reading who may be unfamiliar, "gangsta rap/drill music" is a common conspiracy-theory shibboleth. Has been for the last ten (drill) to thirty (rap) years. Between that and the water-carrying for anti-trans bigots, this has no place here.

On the contrary, discussing institutional dogma has a major place on HN because the hacker ethos is to question authority and the official narratives of the dominant system we are embedded in. Or at least it used to be… now a larger number of people on HN support centralized power in the form of corporations, state governments, CBDCs, etc. while also bitterly complaining about the downstream results of their exercise of that power.

Just because people are being systematically squelched for questioning gangsta rap or giving amphetamines to kids doesn’t mean they are “bigots”. They may care more about individuals than the people who view the kids as just a cog in a machine, and the administrators who cover their butt and barely know anything about the kid.

I believe that water-carrying is being done in the other direction far more — the capitalist industries that make a profit.

Check out the following issues and ask yourself whether all they have in common is “conspiracy nuts”, or whether on the other side they have a highly organized cooperation to push a change through, and to deplatform and delegitimize anyone — even previously respected experts or people whose job it is to deal with these issues - who dares to make too much noise or criticize whatever agenda is pushed:

Weapons industry / military industrial complex — the latest being the war in Ukraine, but previously in Iraq etc.

Plastic - recycling (later revealed to be a scam)

Depression - I saw lots of pushback right here on HN when questioning SSRIs and imbalance theory, but since the 2022 meta-study that died down

Vaccines - we are all aware of how pervasive the push for censorship was, just look at the latest revelations out of FB, Twitter

(CBDCs and National IDs - coming soon)

Gangsta Rap - anyone speaking against it or its misogyny is attacked

Trans activism - anyone voicing any concern for overdiagnosis, or the economic system that separates kids from both their parents, or even continues to use the psychiatric perspective of a disorder or dysphoria out of a concern for children, is shamed as “on the wrong side of history”.

BLM - Anyone discussing any other killings other than by cops of unarmed Black men was systematically attacked

MeToo - Men told to be quiet, listen and not be part of the conversation. Once again rape is very important topic, but the concept got “overdiagnosed” and stretched to the point where someone like Matt Damon making a nuanced distinction becomes persona non grata

To be clear, a man disagreeing with the following tweet is not the same as normalizing rape, but look how quick one side (the water-carrying one, in my opinion) is to paint the other as an “antisemitic/racist/white supremacist/misogynist/putin-supporting/bigot” for merely speaking up and voicing different opinion: https://twitter.com/driverminnie/status/941905518284566528?s...

There are groups who pounce on anyone attributing disparities in economic outcomes to any other factors than the one-dimensional explanation of systemic sexism, racism, etc. It is like when some Zionists explain criticism of Israel purely in terms of systemic antisemitism, or some anti-Zionists navel-gaze at Israel call it the world’s worst violator of human rights and hurl epithets at anyone who mildly disgrees. When you have an agenda you tend to do lots of adhominems. It shuts down the conversation and prevents real discussion exploring other factors. Because institutions have an agenda and they co-opt people into enforcing it. Whether it’s regular Han Chinese in China supporting the locking up of Uyghurs for the “greater good”. Or Sunni/Shiite proxy wars in Yemen. Their “solutions” are invariably worse than the problem, which in any case is upstream and probably due to the very institution and government working together to create it.

The well-meaning activists who carry water for these industries and agendas do not engage in good faith. They are so convinced they are morally superior that they simply insinuate you’re a bad person and then respond in passive-aggressive one-liners!

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#199

I've posted this before, but I went to a new dentist one time and though I'd never had a cavity, the new dentist said I had nine, some of which were pretty bad and needed immediate treatment lest they require a root canal. I didn't have any money or dental insurance at the time, so I didn't go back and just worried about it a lot for a while. That was twenty-five years ago. Haven't been to a dentist since. My teeth a…

Went to a new dentist after moving. She found two "small spots that could go bad if left untreated!" and "should be drilled and filled!". A year later I am still in pain some time. Dentists are fucking psychopaths and we are literally cattle at their mercy. I have no idea how to continue, how to find a dentist I can trust with my stupid teeth. I am terribly afraid of them now.

Did you have the work done? I suspect you should go to a different dentist based on reviews from people you know.

Also, try oil pulling and get some good higher end toothpaste. I had some sensitivity and after doing both everything is great.

Re: I went to 50 different dentists: almost all gave a different diagnosis (1997)

#200

My son when 3 had a fall and a few teeth were bent. Went to our local dentist who mostly had a wait and see opinion. But then calls a day later and says they’ve decided they should just come out. Two top front teeth. Would have no top front teeth for years. I went into engineer mode and while I acknowledged I didn’t have domain expertise, I asked questions and probed the whole situation. Very unsatisfactory, meanderi…

Good for you figuring this out. I always point out to my wife that an expert with a financial benefit in the advice they are giving you is potentially more dangerous than an amateur. If you are a dentist, "more dentistry" is likely to resonate with them as a solution, especially if that means they charge for doing the work. No different than if you ask a software developer if you should hire them to automate some pro…

> I always point out to my wife that an expert with a financial benefit in the advice they are giving you is potentially more dangerous than an amateur.

Indeed. In my country we have a public healthcare system. I also have private insurance, which I use sometimes because you can get consultations and tests much faster; but I wouldn't do anything invasive with the private insurance before getting an opinion from a public doctor first. The incentives aren't well aligned in private healthcare. For me, the combo (trust diganoses from the public system more, but use private when convenient) seems to work well.

Public healthcare doesn't cover dentists, though, and to be honest, from other people's experience, I don't trust them much. I haven't visited one in over 20 years, and so far I haven't experienced pain or any other annoying symptoms other than some slight gum bleeding once per year or so which seems to resolve by itself by brushing and flossing more thoroughly than normal for a few days. I know it's risky and this may come to bite me later. Fingers crossed.

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