Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#51

Post by westcort » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

jxf wrote: post #36

edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're concerned about. I'm now assuming the part they don't like is §10.4(ii): > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights…

You will have to excuse me if I don’t trust a company that kicks off users at the behest of the PRC!

https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-do...

Quibbles over the definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are designed to obfuscate meaning and confuse readers to think that the headline is wrong. It is not wrong. This company does what it wants to, obviously, given it’s complicity with a regime that is currently engaging in genocide.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp

Why do you trust them to generate an AI model of your appearance and voice that could be used to destroy your life? I don’t.

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#52

Post by jsnell » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

sjmulder wrote: post #8

isodev wrote: post #2

10.2 … You agree that Zoom compiles and may compile Service Generated Data based on Customer Content and use of the Services and Software. You consent to Zoom’s access, use, collection, creation, modification, distribution, processing, sharing, maintenance, and storage of Service Generated Data for any purpose, to the extent and in the manner permitted under applicable Law, including for the purpose of product and se…

"..for any purpose", how is this ever supposed to fly in the EU or UK? Should be opt-in, not in the small print, and entirely optional.

You're both misquoting and misunderstanding. Misquoting in that you clipped out the "to the extent and in the manner permitted under applicable Law". And misunderstanding since the text was talking "service generated data", not about "customer data". That's basically data generated by their system (e.g. debug logs). It's not the data you entered into the system (contact information), the calls you made, the chats you sent, etc.

Also, the linked document is effectively a license for the intellectual property rights. The data protection side of things would be covered by the privacy policy[0]. This all seems pretty standard?

[0] https://explore.zoom.us/en/privacy/

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#53

Post by rsync » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

Do the terms of service require that my content be truthful or even reflective of reality in any way ?

Do the terms of service disallow machine generated content ?

How soon until this becomes an arms race between zoom and those that would attempt to poison zoom ?

(Asking for a friend…)

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#54

Post by duringmath » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

Using user generated data to train an AI is no different than scanning it for spam or any other administrative function, and using public data to train your AI model is fair use and everyone should get over it already.

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#55

Post by jxf » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

westcort wrote: post #51

jxf wrote: post #36

edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're concerned about. I'm now assuming the part they don't like is §10.4(ii): > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights…

You will have to excuse me if I don’t trust a company that kicks off users at the behest of the PRC! https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/11/zoom-admits-to-shutting-do... Quibbles over the definition of phrases like “Customer Content” and “Service Generated Data” are designed to obfuscate meaning and confuse readers to think that the headline is wrong. It is not wrong. This company does what it wants to, obviously, given i…

I'm not rendering an opinion here about the trustworthiness of Zoom. I'm simply saying that the plain reading of the TOS is the opposite of what the headline on this post claims.

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#56

Post by cj » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:15 PM UTC

tikkun wrote: post #15

What are the alternatives people have tried and had good experiences with?

We use Google Meet at our company for everything including external client and vendor calls.

Not to say Google has the best track record with privacy… but its feature set is on par with Zoom in most areas

(I personally like it because it’s 100% sandboxed in the browser)

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#57

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:16 PM UTC

ohdannyboy wrote: post #35

Zoom is the standard tool I've seen therapists use. I wonder if they use a hippa compliant vl variant.

Zoom definitely sells that.

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#58

Post by ta1243 » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:17 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #33

morkalork wrote: post #18

Isn't this a huge legal minefield when you think about schools using zoom for online learning?

Once you have enough budget for full time lawyers, legal minefields are just another thing to test. Many times, the mines will be inactive, at least long enough to earn money. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission, etc.

My company has been asked to sign a form 899, which seems to be interpreted as meaning we have to ensure that our entire supply chain does not use Huawei

I'm not sure how we can do that. For example the only ISP we can use in one of our offices provides internet via a devices with a Huawei MAC address. Now fine, I can see it's part, we could close the office, but how can I confirm that a security contractor we have in Kabul doesn't own a Huaweii mobile phone? I'm sure our company employs foreign agents somewhere in the company -- there was always an open secret that the cleaner in the Moscow office worked for the KGB.

It's with our lawyers, but they basically say the way it's been presented is any business with operations in any way reliant on the internet cannot sign the form. Maybe they're overparanoid. Maybe US legal practice is that you sign and hope for the best.

I can see jobs programs for rocket scientists to stop them emigrating, but for lawyers?

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#59

Post by jsnell » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

jxf wrote: post #36

edit: I'm retracting my earlier comment. Earlier I wrote that the headline didn't seem to match what was in the TOS, since OP never mentioned which part they're concerned about. I'm now assuming the part they don't like is §10.4(ii): > 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights…

But it is saying that your customer content may be used for training AI, in 10.4:

> 10.4 Customer License Grant. You agree to grant and hereby grant Zoom a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights required or necessary to redistribute, publish, import, access, use, store, transmit, review, disclose, preserve, extract, modify, reproduce, share, use, display, copy, distribute, translate, transcribe, create derivative works, and process Customer Content and to perform all acts with respect to the Customer Content: (i) as may be necessary for Zoom to provide the Services to you, including to support the Services; (ii) for the purpose of product and service development, marketing, analytics, quality assurance, machine learning, artificial intelligence, [...]

Re: Zoom terms now allow training AI on user content with no opt out

#60

Post by ebiester » Sun, Aug 06, 2023, 2:19 PM UTC

_ddzr wrote: post #11

Thankfully nothing like this is in Jitsi Meet’s TOS: https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/ It never ceases to amaze me how companies choose the worst software!

How does Jitsi handle 500-person+ conference calls these days? This is the killer zoom feature - it looks like Jitsi can handle up to 500 now. https://jaas.8x8.vc/#/comparison .

That's personally not enough for many remote companies. So if we're going to have to have Zoom on our machines anyway (to handle an all-company meeting), why not just use it for the rest?