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San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

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Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#91
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existing problem is that multi-family dwellings are illegal in many high demand areas. Otherwise it would be highly profitable to build them there. If you fix that you don't need to do anything else. Putting the state in charge of housing is the cause of the existing problem. They become captured by landlords, or favor higher property values because they increase property tax revenues. What you need is some const…

Why isn't more regulation the answer? If children misbehave at school we don't give them more freedom. There are widely published opinions that state this just makes landlords richer and housing rarer to further deregulate.

In general competitive pressure makes things better. If you can choose between two things that are similar but one costs less, you can save money. If they cost the same but one is better, you can choose the better one. The easier it is for you to switch, the less the provider can get away with before you do.

Governments have weak competitive pressure. You have to uproot your whole life and move to another jurisdiction. When you vote, you're making a choice about every issue under the sun at once and it's impossible to change your vote on only one issue by itself. You can also easily end up "represented" by the candidate you voted against. As a result they're extremely inefficient by default and should only be used when the alternative is catastrophic.

This is doubly true in markets that could be competitive, because the incumbents have the incentive to use the government to reduce competition so they make more money. The obviously relevant example is zoning rules that restrict housing supply. It's critical to not allow that to happen, or to undo it when it already has.

Trying to cancel it out with even more regulations is just another opportunity for incumbents to sneak in some new way of screwing you. When you screw up a market this badly, people get desperate and angry and start proposing all kinds of aggressive "solutions" because they fail to understand the cause of the problem but want something done about it. The most ridiculous of these are generally filtered out, but the ones that make it through are the ones that don't work or make it worse because those are the ones the incumbents fight the least.

You have to fight the cause of the problem, which is a government captured by land owners imposing rules that make housing more expensive. The solution is to remove those rules.

> There are widely published opinions that state this just makes landlords richer and housing rarer to further deregulate.

One of the main reasons "deregulation" has a bad name is that its purpose is to increase competition and lower prices, which is exactly the thing the incumbents don't want, so instead they propose a "compromise" that prevents exactly the thing you're trying to get.

For example, suppose you have two rules. One says that new housing construction is utterly prohibited, the other says that all rental properties must have working plumbing.

In a competitive market the second rule is inefficient because all it really does is prohibit anyone from offering a storage unit with no plumbing. There would be enough apartments with running water that nobody would have any reason to consider one that didn't.

But in a market where increasing the housing supply is inhibited, there are more tenants than rental units and that allows abusive slumlords to find tenants willing to live under such conditions.

Much "deregulation" is the corruption in which you only remove the second rule and not the first, which of course makes things worse, because the first one is the one that matters and the second one is just an inefficient attempt to mitigate the damage.

Increase the housing supply until rents go down. Accept no substitutes.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#92
post #10
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but probably that "fulfilling basic human needs shouldn't be for profit" I'm a colossal fan of co-ops and credit unions for this reason.

So if you fulfill basic human needs you aren't allowed to make a profit but every other industry can?

Maybe buying up life-critical drugs to hike up the prices?

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#93
post #48

As a landlord in SF (talk about bad life choices): if you can't rent out your units, you're charging too much. Simple as that. It's no different than a renter being frustrated because he's looking for a penthouse condo for $100/month. It might be sad if you ended up in some overly leveraged position, but you did that knowing the risks and expecting to make a lot of money using that leverage. But no one is entitled to…

It isn't anything special. Lots of big companies now accept WFH 3 days a week. The other 2 days they arrange company shuttles for those people so it is much easier now.

Your example of $100/month is ridiculous hyperbole. More like $4000 in SF and $2000 in San Jose. If I have to choose between an extra 4h a week driving but saving $500 per week, then I will do it.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#94

Sucks that SF is decay. But about the title - That's VERY Good! Humanity and society does not need an occupation identified as a "landlord". Housing should not be an investment ever.

Not sure it’s an “occupation” for most. I make less than 5% of my monthly living expenses off my rental property and treat my tenants with the care I’d treat my own family. I’m not sure a few bad actors taking advantage of people warrants statements like, “Housing should not be an investment ever.”

You are an exception I am afraid

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing them from the equation would increase supply and decrease prices. As a landlord I’d be interested to understand your proposed mechanism to “remove” me. Could you also elaborate what happens to my capital and what I should be doing instead with the excess capital my productivity generates over my chosen needs and wants?

You'd have to sell your rental properties. Invest your money in something else. It's not my concern. Your desire for investment vehicles is less important than the public need for housing.

And have you thought about what else I would invest into?

This attitude is so incredibly economical illiterate that it’s shocking we have HN commentators that don’t understand.

Who I am selling to? at what price? Do you support state confiscation of private capital?

Are factories that produce cereal next?

It’s an embarrassment to western education that educated people have such poor understanding of basic economics.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#96
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't more regulation the answer? If children misbehave at school we don't give them more freedom. There are widely published opinions that state this just makes landlords richer and housing rarer to further deregulate.

In general competitive pressure makes things better. If you can choose between two things that are similar but one costs less, you can save money. If they cost the same but one is better, you can choose the better one. The easier it is for you to switch, the less the provider can get away with before you do. Governments have weak competitive pressure. You have to uproot your whole life and move to another jurisdictio…

Why does no one want to increase the housing supply then unless they can get federal money to do so?

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#97
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landlords aren't a cartel in that sense. The way they get together and "fix prices" is by having the government restrict housing density to increase scarcity. A non-profit that has to follow the same zoning rules can't fix that. Whereas if prices are high and you don't prohibit lower density housing from being replaced with higher density housing, there is money in doing that and the market takes care of it for you.

I mean my preferred solution would be zoning reform first, yes. I was just proposing an amendment to OPs policy, I don't think it's politically viable in the US. In my large US city, a lot of apartments are held by various corporations that collude via third party software to raise and keep prices high. The local building managers have no say in lease pricing. Maybe a small percentage of people are lucky enough to fi…

Software can't defeat supply and demand unless you have a monopoly.

Suppose the amount rents have to hit before it's profitable to build a new building is $1000/month and right now rents are at $990/month. A cartel representing 70% of the landlords in the city collude to raise rents to $2500/month.

If they're allowed to, builders will keep building new housing until rents are back below $1000, because until that point they can keep making money by doing it. Even if they have to increase the housing stock in the city by the entire 70% and leave the cartel with a bunch of empty buildings.

But if they're not allowed to build, prices go up. And some entity with a profit cap can't do anything about it because they have no path to supplying enough housing to lower the market price.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#98
post #50

Free market principles do not apply well for apartments because of the limits on supplies and services and other externalities so I (like most here) am pretty supportive of legislation managing this. However, the legislative ideas and overall process for coming up with good, fair, and efficient laws in SF is absolutely abysmal. The lawmakers listen to the voters and the voters insist on laws that are just, well, bad.…

> In addition to it effectively destroying the community aspect of schools where your kids go to school with the neighbors which facilitates neighboring families meeting each other and becoming friends, walking to school together, and so on.

This is the reason I'm hardcore opposed to bussing. It disrupts the ability of your stereotypical battle axe mothers from riding the schools ass. I'm sure school district goldbricks love that.

Personal view point which may not be universal. It's supposedly a lottery. But my friends with mixed race kids all got accepted to the better schools. And my friends whose kids have Norman Rockwell nature all got accepted to the schools where the district dumps the problematic kids.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#99
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general competitive pressure makes things better. If you can choose between two things that are similar but one costs less, you can save money. If they cost the same but one is better, you can choose the better one. The easier it is for you to switch, the less the provider can get away with before you do. Governments have weak competitive pressure. You have to uproot your whole life and move to another jurisdictio…

Why does no one want to increase the housing supply then unless they can get federal money to do so?

Plenty of people do, but zoning rules make it expensive.

Suppose you want to build a 20 story condo. The most efficient thing to do is to find an empty plot of land or a single family home and build it there, but that's prohibited by zoning. 20 story buildings aren't allowed there.

Now what you have to do is find an existing 10 story condo and knock that down, because it's in a place zoned for tall buildings. But that costs a lot more, and you also have to remove all the people who are already living there instead of just buying one house from someone who is already moving. It's so much more expensive than the first thing that it's not profitable, so it doesn't happen without a subsidy. Not only that, even if it does happen, you've now paid to build a 20 story building and only added 10 stories worth of housing.

Re: San Francisco Landlords may lose everything [video]

#100
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean my preferred solution would be zoning reform first, yes. I was just proposing an amendment to OPs policy, I don't think it's politically viable in the US. In my large US city, a lot of apartments are held by various corporations that collude via third party software to raise and keep prices high. The local building managers have no say in lease pricing. Maybe a small percentage of people are lucky enough to fi…

Software can't defeat supply and demand unless you have a monopoly. Suppose the amount rents have to hit before it's profitable to build a new building is $1000/month and right now rents are at $990/month. A cartel representing 70% of the landlords in the city collude to raise rents to $2500/month. If they're allowed to , builders will keep building new housing until rents are back below $1000, because until that poi…

The supply here is highly constrained, hence my desire (in general) for zoning reform. Of course, there's a lot of opposition to building more housing from the usual suspects.

Build more housing, that's the only way.

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