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Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

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Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#381

Post by titzer »

jacquesm wrote: post #376
titzer wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem; with the inertia the system is carrying where there are no "ethical" choices left. That's of course no excuse to pick a horribly fascist and evil one. Yet that seems to be the inference in any conversation where you point out that fact that we're basically fucked. "Oh yeah, well obviously you are a genocidal monster. That must mean we're not fucked." Uh, no. I'm watching this garbage truck smash in…

I don't care about what people call me, I'm just pointing out there are too many of us. Historically when there were too many people we ended up with wars or famine. I don't think this time around it will be an exception to that rule, but it's the first time this is happening at this scale. In that sense all bets are off, it is also possible that given such stakes humanity can find it in itself to pull the cart as on…

> I don't care about what people call me

I hope it's clear from context that I wasn't directing anything at you; we're basically in complete agreement.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#382

Post by concordDance »

peteradio wrote: post #357
concordDance wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an awful analogy. The science behind, say, sunshades is much stronger than the science behind climate change itself! Eg. The odds of blocking out the sun not cooling the earth are much lower than the earth's temperature magically stabilising at current levels despite more co2 emissions.

Sunshade is like thinking you fixed the bios security issue because your test case can no longer boot.

Is the implication here that global warming isn't the actual problem we're trying to solve?

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#383

Post by detourdog »

jacquesm wrote: post #365
detourdog wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure Canada is driven by heating load.

What drives it doesn't matter. Some areas may simply not be habitable sustainably.

I understand I was just trying to explain to myself how they were #1 in usage. I was surprised. I was also trying to define the problem since they were outpacing the USA.

Looks like Niagara falls only produces about 16 billion BTUs or 4.9 Million kWs.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#384

Post by peteradio »

concordDance wrote: post #382
peteradio wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sunshade is like thinking you fixed the bios security issue because your test case can no longer boot.

Is the implication here that global warming isn't the actual problem we're trying to solve?

No but you can appear to solve a problem with a myopic poorly formed test. Ala we got temps down but wheat yields are down but we won't blame the sunshade because that solved the problem.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#385

Post by detourdog »

CalRobert wrote: post #255
atoav wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very uncomplicated in fact: Most people here on HN are rationally capable of understanding the challenges humanity faces right now. What many aren't capable of is accepting the conclusion that we all have to change the way we live and quite possibly even the way we organize society in order to mitigate the irreperable problems our way of living has already caused. Deep down they might suspect this is necessary,…

I want everyone to be able to live in a well insulated flat powered by renewable energy walking and biking distance from their daily needs, and with public transport (and rarely-needed EV share) for the rest. Combined with a low meat low dairy diet and less disposable consumer junk it seems like we could get a long ways with an arguably better quality of life. Maybe work half time too.

I have the perfect place for you but only currently 5 available units. It checks everyone of your needs.*

Meets your criteria and has fiber installed. We have at least 2 neighbors that will sell you eggs and I would let you garden.

*have chosen EV charger the ev share will have to wait for full occupency.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#386

Post by detourdog »

adaml_623 wrote: post #259
CalRobert wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want everyone to be able to live in a well insulated flat powered by renewable energy walking and biking distance from their daily needs, and with public transport (and rarely-needed EV share) for the rest. Combined with a low meat low dairy diet and less disposable consumer junk it seems like we could get a long ways with an arguably better quality of life. Maybe work half time too.

Who's building that well insulated flat and where is the insulation coming from? I sometimes worry that the pyramid of infrastructure and labour required to create that flat is not scalable

I just did it. Definitely possible. Every project is a compromise. The biggest and easiest compromise to make is location.

Opportunities are everywhere if one is looking and prepared.

I don't understand why so many people choose to believe things are impossible.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0Y5oqs3qnakFd

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#387

Post by twobitshifter »

wnkrshm wrote: post #231
sfvisser wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt many proponents of geoengineering think in terms of rebooting or isolating individual factors. The appeal of geoengineering is you can nudge specific systems slowly into another direction. You can start small and observe expected effects and unwanted side-effects. Reduction of sulfer emissions by ships is an interesting starting point to learn something.

Starting small doesn't work if you have a nonlinear system. In nonlinear systems, the magnitude of a perturbance isn't linearly related to the absorbed effect. So in the worst case: small input, giant irreversible effect.

Control of nonlinear systems is common, in this case we’d be starting small by putting the system back to the state it was in when the sulfur were there. Additionally, removing an input can have an outsized effect as we saw here, so your philosophy seems to require a do nothing approach. Is that what you mean?

Of course that’s impossible to do since the world itself is doing things like erupting volcanos, shifting plates, melting glaciers, and redirecting ocean currents.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#388

Post by twobitshifter »

teamonkey wrote: post #306
bartimus wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing atmospheric CO2 is geo-engineering just as well. Tackling climate change is going to involve climate engineering. Some solutions will work. Others will not. > to refrain from aggravating the situation Easier said than done. What makes you think this is going to be achievable? Why are you assuming the HN community isn't acknowledging the complexity and not taking a holistic approach?

Pumping CO2 into the atmosphere is geoengineering. Reducing CO2 emissions is less geoengineering.

This case was pumping sulfur into the atmosphere, removing the sulfur (less geoengineering) made things worse!

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#389

Post by aziaziazi »

jacquesm wrote: post #373
aziaziazi wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that vision we never can’t do anything because leaders needs to be leaded by others. People do change their habits, donate, volunteer, make concessions and work hard for the good of society in its whole.

There are a number of problems that all interlock. Democracies with their relatively short election cycles will naturally find it hard to deal with problems that last much longer than those election cycles and that have the bulk of the problems downstream of us. Voters are motivated by their personal issues first, local issues second and global issues dead last. Countries are going to have to collaborate in a very st…

I agree we shouldn’t count on our liberal democraties to handle that. Individuals will do the job and the majority is coming, just wait for the boomers to evade in their fantastic plastic graves.

Re: Reduction of sulfur emissions from ships may be causing rising sea temperatures

#390

Post by hotdogscout »

brutusborn wrote: post #95
hotdogscout wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climategate was definitely real even if it obviously does not disprove or relate to human-driven climate change. Scientists are sometimes politically motivated and will resort to lying to push their point. This romanticization of scientists and scientific institutions as inherently above lying and fraud is mythological. I see it happening on engineering research that has zero political relevance, imagine research tha…

The way I see it is the media conflated “ClimateGate deniers think global warming is false” with “ClimateGate deniers think global warming models aren’t scientific.” Any politicised science should be treated with extreme. skepticism

>Any politicised science should be treated with extreme. skepticism

Proximal Origin[1] and the deliberate manufactured narrative of conflating criticism of it's blatant flaws to a conspiracy theory[2,3,4] was diabolical, I personally hope Nature's reputation is destroyed because of it.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

[2] https://theintercept.com/2023/07/12/covid-documents-house-re...

[3] https://theintercept.com/2023/01/19/covid-origin-nih-emails/

[4] https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/p/why-proximal-origins-mu...

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