Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#141

Post by jayd16 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

bastardoperator wrote: post #121

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

A 10 second conversations sounds like a slack message to me, or providing the guidance before they go down the rabbit.

The difference is you can tell on someone's face whether they're struggling or cranking away without bugging them.

"Give guidance before" is about as good a "just don't make mistakes."

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#142

Post by dinvlad » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

hext wrote: post #93

sublinear wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send your DMs when people are on "busy" status anyway. They can respond later. That's the huge advantage of remote work. Async communication is so much more efficient. If you're watching the clock, there's something wrong.

Async communication is not even remotely close to socializing, and hardly feels like genuine human interaction.

Work != socializing. Quality work requires deep concentration over long stretches of time, not tapping on a shoulder at random intervals. Both IRL and virtually.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#143

Post by ricardo81 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

senttoschool wrote: post #48

ricardo81 wrote: post #31

It's weird seeing all this content the past 3+ years about remote working as I've worked remotely for 20+ years. I'm not an authority on the matter (why would I be), just weird to see so much 'authority content' on it lately. Maybe there are more granular and data-driven conclusions, I'm just someone who sees the benefit of communicating information over vast distances aka the web and appreciate that it's something w…

There’s a difference between the population that worked remotely before and after Covid. The population before Covid were often highly experienced, disciplined, and proven workers. The population after Covid, was well, everyone who worked with a laptop. Not everyone is cut for working remotely. In addition, there’s a difference between 1 out 20 people working remotely full time and 20 out of 20.

>20 out of 20.

tbf, if you meant the full workforce it's never going to be 100%, there's so many jobs that require physical presence out of necessity.

There's maybe some jobs where you could also argue it's required.

Emergency surgery, police, paramedics, electricity grid maintenance, plenty jobs where there's simply no WFH angle.

I'd totally agree that personality types would also clash from WFH, so it's definitely not the definitive solution, but it works for a lot of people.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#144

Post by fendy3002 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

> A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE

Agree, though sometimes the hours of head banging will benefit greatly to the skills of said junior.

That aside, everyone should be encouraged to ask to company's developer forum (slack channel). That way, if the senior that's responsible to train the junior is busy, other less busy senior can help.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#145

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:21 PM UTC

x86x87 wrote: post #96

whateverman23 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. The best mentoring results for me as the mentee and for me as a mentor have been when we're sitting next to each other. The mentor can visually tell when the mentee is stuck, and mentee can tell when the mentor…

Yew, if only we could assign a senior engineer to watch over every new person that joins /s Part of learning to be a sw developer is learning how to go about your work. Learning when to ask for help. If someone is doing this for you, you'll never going to learn.

> learning how to go about your work

There are whole college degree programs designed to teach this, in fact.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#146

Post by jayd16 » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:21 PM UTC

willio58 wrote: post #122

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

This is very true. For interns and junior devs if the team is remote the seniors need to set aside time to help them out daily. I've started doing this as a senior dev on my team, basically setting time for office hours, and it's been great so far.

Office hours is an ironic choice of words.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#147

Post by dinvlad » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

I think it's actually better for junior engineers to go alone for long stretches of time. That is such a huge driving force for their own success, when they have to learn by doing a lot of things on their own, without external help, and without someone constantly micro-managing them.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#148

Post by abalashov » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

dinvlad wrote: post #147

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

I think it's actually better for junior engineers to go alone for long stretches of time. That is such a huge driving force for their own success, when they have to learn by doing a lot of things on their own, without external help, and without someone constantly micro-managing them.

I don't know. Really depends.

Some of them are very independently-motivated and self-contained, but inexperience means they are still prone to rabbit holes. Others really will sit on their hands until explicitly told what to do, which doesn't mean they're bad or lazy, just that they require tight feedback loops.

In both cases, it seems like quicker feedback cycles do more good than harm.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#149

Post by abalashov » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

x86x87 wrote: post #92

repeekad wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was one of those juniors, the rapid shift to remote work ruined me. I had just moved to a new city where I knew no one to start a life doing the work I loved, and all at once I got told leaving my house was dangerous and to stay home alone all day staring at a screen to keep people safe, for 2+ years… It’s great you value work life balance, but junior engineers suffered a lot (to different degrees), and you being o…

You need social in person interaction as a human being. Nobody is disputing that. Should you rely on your work to get that interaction and can you make the claim that it helps your work?

Considering that it delivers a feeling of productive communion, the camaraderie and esprit d'corps of solving problems together, and generally feeling useful, the answer might be yes. Especially if, as an adult, it's where you spend most of your waking hours.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not romanticising the marriage of one's social life to one's workplace, nor overlooking the ways this "we are more than a company, we're family" rhetoric benefits employers at the expense of their employees' outside lives and broader well-rounded and fulfilment. But I think asking people to separate them in an extreme way is just as untenable.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#150

Post by hypeit » Fri, Aug 04, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

sussexby wrote: post #6

Currently in crisis because I simply can't handle communication in remote work. For something I do for the majority of my working day, I feel devoid of human interaction to such an extent that it's massively affecting my mental health. I regularly find myself clock-watching until the next time I can talk to someone because everyone is always busy - there are no water coolers or coffee breaks to stitch in between. Eve…

I have to admit as someone who enjoys WFH and would never work in an office again, that having co-workers like you is one of the main reasons. You should work on not relying so much on others. You may be benefiting from all that social "charging up", but you're taking that from the person on the other side of the conversation.

I work to make money, not to fill someone's social void. You'll be happier if you explore the root cause of your issue and get a little more comfortable with yourself.