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Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

ben.balter.com

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Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#41

Post by WirelessGigabit »

leidenfrost wrote: post #39

Another (unrelated) problem with Remote work is how harder is to lose weight when you stop moving throughout the day. Before the pandemic, I usually got up to make coffee, to ask for help or to make consensus with my fellow coworkers (other devs or even UX people, a few stairs away). I usually walked from work from time to time to clear up my mind. Now I barely move. I live in a small apartment. The fridge is 3 meter…

For me it's the other way. I used to drive to work. Now I walk before and after work.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#42

Post by bravetraveler »

fsociety wrote: post #15
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

I think the experience of banging your head against the wall (for a bit) can be valuable. As long as the culture of the team encourages this and offers an escape hatch after a few hours (or whatever timeframe is appropriate for the problem).

Yep, this is learning. Asking for help is a key part. Without trying first, asking for help is asking for someone to do it for you.

In office, remote, whichever - I've been ignored. It took a while to learn to ask questions.

People will help, but "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", and all. There's movement [or an attempt] implied with this.

The locality doesn't matter, effective communication can exist in either.

It's possible to foster a remote environment where Juniors do ask questions - I've worked in several. As such, I'm skeptical of this 'Think of the Juniors' concern. It's manageable.

It's also worth pointing out, Junior and Senior aren't diametrically opposed. It's relative and nebulous depending on context.

I'm a Senior Architect, but know very little about the specifics of our network devices - for example. I'm Junior to our 'Network Engineering' team, making an Ouroboros of Seniority

Recognizing where strengths are helps greatly. Productive environments have their Seniors evangelizing this awareness

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#43

Post by eyelidlessness »

fsociety wrote: post #15
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

I think the experience of banging your head against the wall (for a bit) can be valuable. As long as the culture of the team encourages this and offers an escape hatch after a few hours (or whatever timeframe is appropriate for the problem).

On the one hand, I agree from personal experience. Banging my head on the wall is how I’ve learned quite a lot of what I know and developed many helpful instincts.

But on the other hand, I think that value comes from more than the persistence alone: it depends a lot on what you hope to get out of it. And I also say this from experience. Banging my head to “make it work” has almost always been an enormous waste of time and effort, but to “learn how/why it works [or not]” has been the exact opposite.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#44

Post by whateverman23 »

x86x87 wrote: post #18
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

Oh.. The poor juniors. Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring to the remote setting let's romanticize the good old ways that imho sucked. Let's cherrypick and pretend everything is fine. We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. Wr transformed the office from a place where work actually is done to a placr where we "socialize". Work? Do that on…

> Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring

But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience.

The best mentoring results for me as the mentee and for me as a mentor have been when we're sitting next to each other. The mentor can visually tell when the mentee is stuck, and mentee can tell when the mentor isn't focusing on anything important and is more willing to ask for help.

No matter how many times you tell junior engineers to ping you at the first sign of trouble, they're not going to do it. They're going to toil for way longer than needed, unless you're sitting right next to each other.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#45

Post by throwbadubadu »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

That's true, but I don't see how this relates to pandemic or being remote?

Also not reaching out when getting totally stuck is a bad thing, but again unrelated?

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#47

Post by malfist »

x86x87 wrote: post #18
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #4

This sounds great for experienced engineers, but in my experience junior workers often require bite-sized guidance in order to avoid going down rabbit holes. A 10 second conversation could easily save hours of head-banging-into-wall type work for a junior SWE (not even exaggerating). Accordingly, during the pandemic I think it was mostly the less experienced engineers suffering from low productivity and lack of confi…

Oh.. The poor juniors. Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring to the remote setting let's romanticize the good old ways that imho sucked. Let's cherrypick and pretend everything is fine. We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. Wr transformed the office from a place where work actually is done to a placr where we "socialize". Work? Do that on…

To add to your point. Just because there's a tradeoff one way doesn't mean we shouldn't make that tradeoff.

Yeah, there might be some impacts to junior engineers. But if it improves the efficiency of your more expensive senior devs, isn't it worth it?

And just because your team has a problem with onboarding and mentoring junior devs in a remote environment doesn't mean A) Everyone has the same problem, B) you can't fix that problem yourself. Self improvement is the name of the game here anyway

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#48

Post by senttoschool »

ricardo81 wrote: post #31

It's weird seeing all this content the past 3+ years about remote working as I've worked remotely for 20+ years. I'm not an authority on the matter (why would I be), just weird to see so much 'authority content' on it lately. Maybe there are more granular and data-driven conclusions, I'm just someone who sees the benefit of communicating information over vast distances aka the web and appreciate that it's something w…

There’s a difference between the population that worked remotely before and after Covid.

The population before Covid were often highly experienced, disciplined, and proven workers.

The population after Covid, was well, everyone who worked with a laptop.

Not everyone is cut for working remotely.

In addition, there’s a difference between 1 out 20 people working remotely full time and 20 out of 20.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#49

Post by malfist »

whateverman23 wrote: post #44
x86x87 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh.. The poor juniors. Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring to the remote setting let's romanticize the good old ways that imho sucked. Let's cherrypick and pretend everything is fine. We went from offices to cubicles to open space and nobody stopped to think if it was a good idea. Wr transformed the office from a place where work actually is done to a placr where we "socialize". Work? Do that on…

> Instead of properly adapting the onboarding and mentoring But... how? Remote check-ins with juniors every 30-60 minutes? That's crazy. But that's basically the only way to replicate the in person experience. The best mentoring results for me as the mentee and for me as a mentor have been when we're sitting next to each other. The mentor can visually tell when the mentee is stuck, and mentee can tell when the mentor…

Who suggested checking in with juniors every 30-60 minutes? GP certainly didn't. You're arguing against a strawman.

Re: Remote work requires communicating more, but less frequently

#50

Post by andsoitis »

pydry wrote: post #40
fsociety wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the experience of banging your head against the wall (for a bit) can be valuable. As long as the culture of the team encourages this and offers an escape hatch after a few hours (or whatever timeframe is appropriate for the problem).

I dont. Ive gone down many rabbit holes thanks to, for instance, subtly incorrect or outdated docs in working cultures that valued not being interrupted and it's a recipe for anxiety and a huge waste of time.

Hopefully you updated the docs as you encountered them and figured out the most up to date context.
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