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As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

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Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#141

Post by zamalek »

brutusborn wrote: post #93
a_bonobo wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Ray Hilborn is one of the biggest (most publishing) voices in academic fisheries research, others absolutely hate him: Greenpeace calls him a 'overfishing denier' https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/research/overfishing-denier/ >As part of their investigation into our appeal, the journal also posted a correction noting that several authors of a paper defending the Marine Stewardship Council were actually employed by…

If Greenpeace hates him, that’s a pretty good indication that he’s a reasonable scientist imo. Greenpeace is generally unreasonable politically and scientifically. Their efforts to stop nuclear development have likely caused a third of anthropogenic warming. Their campaigns make the public hate them. They are not a good org to trust for balanced science.

Yep. Greenpeace is one of the major reasons we're in this mess to begin with, with their extremely successful anti-nuclear campaigns.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#142

Post by rayrey »

000ooo000 wrote: post #106
myshpa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. 1. stop overfishing by switching to plant based diets 2. stop fishing ... even fish we don't fish, but decimate (as bycatch) will rebound 3. stop fishing ... there won't be as much plastic to entangle fish, mammals and turtles (49% of great pacific garbage patch is fishing nets) 4. stop animal ag ... minimize agricultural runoff from farms and fields to stop creating dead zones in the ocean 5. stop animal ag ...…

Cool. That sounds tough, though. Do you have any solutions where I can do nothing? How about innovation? /s

Put it on the blockchain?

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#143

Post by brutusborn »

myshpa wrote: post #131
brutusborn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some fisheries are collapsing in places where they are not properly regulated. Meanwhile whale numbers are increasing, polar bear numbers are increasing and in my local fishery the fish population is increasing! Don’t take my comment as saying there are no problems, I’m merely pointing out that telling children “this probably won’t exist when you are an adult” isn’t particularly honest and I don’t think it’s ver…

> polar bear numbers are increasing Hope they'll flourish when we'll have ice free arctic summer in/before 2030.

Which papers predict that? That’s a new one for me.

Around 2010 I remember reading a prediction of ice free arctic by 2020. It used to go hand in hand with the polar bear panic.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#145

Post by myshpa »

brutusborn wrote: post #143
myshpa wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> polar bear numbers are increasing Hope they'll flourish when we'll have ice free arctic summer in/before 2030.

Which papers predict that? That’s a new one for me. Around 2010 I remember reading a prediction of ice free arctic by 2020. It used to go hand in hand with the polar bear panic.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/06/world/arctic-sea-ice-free...

And with this year's temperatures it might be even sooner.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#146

Post by nashashmi »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #138
nashashmi wrote: post #12

> The oxygen drop is driven by a few factors. First, the laws of physics dictate that warmer water can hold less dissolved gas than cooler water (this is why a warm soda is less fizzy than a cold one). > Melting ice adds fresh, less-dense water that resists downward mixing in key regions, and the high rate of atmospheric warming at the poles, as compared to the equator, also dampens winds that drive ocean currents. >…

As water heats, the solubility of solids (salts, sugars, etc.) goes up. As water heats, the solubility of gases (O2, CO2, etc.) goes down. Humanity coming from initial blissful ignorance about CO2 emissions eventually became concerned about rising atmospheric CO2. Most emitted CO2 was actually being absorbed by oceans. This also makes the ocean acidic. So the oceans acted like a "landfill" buffering a large amount of…

Excess CO2 in surface water causes algae and phytoplankton blooms that feeds back into sealife. The CO2 is not being released once the water warms. Rather the waters are becoming more acidic and therefore "tastier".

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#147

Post by myshpa »

chmod775 wrote: post #123
myshpa wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. 1. stop overfishing by switching to plant based diets 2. stop fishing ... even fish we don't fish, but decimate (as bycatch) will rebound 3. stop fishing ... there won't be as much plastic to entangle fish, mammals and turtles (49% of great pacific garbage patch is fishing nets) 4. stop animal ag ... minimize agricultural runoff from farms and fields to stop creating dead zones in the ocean 5. stop animal ag ...…

> 1. stop overfishing by switching to plant based diets Switching to fish raised in fish farms in the open ocean / fresh water fish raised in farms (which are often local) should already be a large improvement, even if it isn't optimal, especially right now when those captive fish are fed fish caught in open waters. Also hope you like mussels and clams, because raising those in farms has little ecological impact and…

Given that mussels and clams filter and clean the water, I'll pass.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36992897

Plants win again! ;)

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#148

Post by brutusborn »

myshpa wrote: post #145
brutusborn wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which papers predict that? That’s a new one for me. Around 2010 I remember reading a prediction of ice free arctic by 2020. It used to go hand in hand with the polar bear panic.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/06/world/arctic-sea-ice-free... And with this year's temperatures it might be even sooner.

Thanks for the link. It’s interesting how CNN doesn’t report that 2030 is the bottom of their confidence interval.

They might be correct, but I don’t have much faith. They have essentially done a temp-ice area regression to fit a model to 50 years of data. Thus they rely on the accuracy of the temp predictions of the IPCC models which I also don’t have much faith in. I lost a lot of confidence in them this year, under-predicting warming so significantly. Most climate scientists imply that this error is simply them underestimating anthropogenic warming rather than it being an indication that their models are not particularly accurate. From the climate science community I have heard some suggestions the volcanic eruption last year was to blame for the extra warming, as well as changes to sulphite pollution policies.

I believe the earth is warming, but that much of it is probably due to existing natural trends and that adaptation will not be particularly hard. When models can predict El Niño with precision or changes in large scale circulation then I think I will be convinced.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#149

Post by DoctorOetker »

nashashmi wrote: post #146
DoctorOetker wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As water heats, the solubility of solids (salts, sugars, etc.) goes up. As water heats, the solubility of gases (O2, CO2, etc.) goes down. Humanity coming from initial blissful ignorance about CO2 emissions eventually became concerned about rising atmospheric CO2. Most emitted CO2 was actually being absorbed by oceans. This also makes the ocean acidic. So the oceans acted like a "landfill" buffering a large amount of…

Excess CO2 in surface water causes algae and phytoplankton blooms that feeds back into sealife. The CO2 is not being released once the water warms. Rather the waters are becoming more acidic and therefore "tastier".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate#Buffer

The first paragraph is written as if it only applies to blood, but chemical equilibria are of course more general, as acknowledged in the second paragraph starting with "Crucially, a similar buffer operates in the oceans."

Observe that the arrows for 1, 2 and 3 go both ways, and so represent reversible equilibrating reactions.

Perhaps you would like sweet seawater instead of salty seawater, but obviously taste can not be argued. Facts however can.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#150

Post by myshpa »

brutusborn wrote: post #148
myshpa wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/06/world/arctic-sea-ice-free... And with this year's temperatures it might be even sooner.

Thanks for the link. It’s interesting how CNN doesn’t report that 2030 is the bottom of their confidence interval. They might be correct, but I don’t have much faith. They have essentially done a temp-ice area regression to fit a model to 50 years of data. Thus they rely on the accuracy of the temp predictions of the IPCC models which I also don’t have much faith in. I lost a lot of confidence in them this year, unde…

> I believe the earth is warming, but that much of it is probably due to existing natural trends and that adaptation will not be particularly hard.

That's called denial and hopium.

> When models can predict El Niño with precision or changes in large scale circulation then I think I will be convinced

We can't predict what local weather will be 3+ days from now. You're being unrealistic, at least.

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