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As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

e360.yale.edu

131–140 of 159 posts

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collapsing marine ecosystems are not theoretical risks, they have been happening around the world for decades (if not more). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evide... Or did you mean "Don't worry, the impact of oxygen level change is exaggerated, because we'll make sure those fish are gone one way or other!"?

Yes, some fisheries are collapsing in places where they are not properly regulated. Meanwhile whale numbers are increasing, polar bear numbers are increasing and in my local fishery the fish population is increasing! Don’t take my comment as saying there are no problems, I’m merely pointing out that telling children “this probably won’t exist when you are an adult” isn’t particularly honest and I don’t think it’s ver…

> polar bear numbers are increasing

Hope they'll flourish when we'll have ice free arctic summer in/before 2030.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#132

> The oxygen drop is driven by a few factors. First, the laws of physics dictate that warmer water can hold less dissolved gas than cooler water (this is why a warm soda is less fizzy than a cold one). > Melting ice adds fresh, less-dense water that resists downward mixing in key regions, and the high rate of atmospheric warming at the poles, as compared to the equator, also dampens winds that drive ocean currents. >…

So there is this idea that we can reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere by using iron seeding into the ocean causing a massive amount of phytoplankton production. But would the side effect of this be a drop in ocean oxygen levels?

It's imho always better to let the nature do the job. Just stop interfering.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#133
post #3

Aside from Ocean Acidification, uncontrollable Algae Blooms, and Melting Sea Ice, we now have Ocean Deoxygenation on our plates. We also have unprecedented droughts on land as well. Humans really will be the next mass extinction event on this planet. So incredibly selfish.

I don’t think any of these are really that critical: they will become a problem in a few centuries if we do absolutely nothing but will likely be fine. Take ocean deoxygenation: it happens locally due to fertiliser runoff in places that have a history of low oxygen. It’s good to put some resources towards fixing this, but it’s not useful to think of it as an extinction level problem that we “now have.”

> Take ocean deoxygenation: it happens locally due to fertiliser runoff

Two types, not one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_deoxygenation#Types_and_...

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#134
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still few problems with this. - intensive fish farming can lead to environmental issues, such as water pollution from fish waste, excessive use of antibiotics and chemicals, and the depletion of wild fish stocks used for fish feed - some farmed fish species require a substantial amount of wild-caught fish to produce a relatively small amount of farmed fish - the conversion of natural habitats like mangroves and wetla…

All of these issues you listed could be mitigated with government regulations and a set of to be defined practices for sustainable fish farming. I am not sure why these issues lead to the conclusion that we have to switch to a plant-based diet.

See Seaspiracy and Cowspiracy

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. 5 years for me. Not sure what will get me first: the protein deficiency, or some kind of stroke from reading rake kickflip justifications for maintaining the animal ag status quo.

Definitely the latter. Mine will come from arguing from a friend that went on full carnivore diet thanks to that paragon of dietary advice Jordan Peterson... the conversations are VERY disagreeable.

My boss did that 5 years ago. He almost died before adopting it.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#136
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Ray Hilborn is one of the biggest (most publishing) voices in academic fisheries research, others absolutely hate him: Greenpeace calls him a 'overfishing denier' https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/research/overfishing-denier/ >As part of their investigation into our appeal, the journal also posted a correction noting that several authors of a paper defending the Marine Stewardship Council were actually employed by…

Ray never denied receiving industry funding, and is pretty transparent about it. It's pretty common in fisheries science. Greenpeace's big gotcha was rather feeble in my opinion. As you said he is prolific in the field. Yet the best Greenpeace could do was get a correction published on a minor paper to say he received industry funding in the five years prior — but that didn't support that particular research [1]. He…

You can’t deny it’s a massive conflict of interest. You cannot trust science done in such an environment, sorry.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#137

> The oxygen drop is driven by a few factors. First, the laws of physics dictate that warmer water can hold less dissolved gas than cooler water (this is why a warm soda is less fizzy than a cold one). > Melting ice adds fresh, less-dense water that resists downward mixing in key regions, and the high rate of atmospheric warming at the poles, as compared to the equator, also dampens winds that drive ocean currents. >…

So there is this idea that we can reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere by using iron seeding into the ocean causing a massive amount of phytoplankton production. But would the side effect of this be a drop in ocean oxygen levels?

No it would increase ocean oxygen levels. CO2 in the atmosphere would become O2 in the ocean and carbon in the phytoplankton. Until the plankton decay, of course.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#138

> The oxygen drop is driven by a few factors. First, the laws of physics dictate that warmer water can hold less dissolved gas than cooler water (this is why a warm soda is less fizzy than a cold one). > Melting ice adds fresh, less-dense water that resists downward mixing in key regions, and the high rate of atmospheric warming at the poles, as compared to the equator, also dampens winds that drive ocean currents. >…

As water heats, the solubility of solids (salts, sugars, etc.) goes up.

As water heats, the solubility of gases (O2, CO2, etc.) goes down.

Humanity coming from initial blissful ignorance about CO2 emissions eventually became concerned about rising atmospheric CO2.

Most emitted CO2 was actually being absorbed by oceans. This also makes the ocean acidic.

So the oceans acted like a "landfill" buffering a large amount of CO2 emissions.

Consider a duplicate earth, where Carbon is added to atmospheric O2 oxygen molecules. As long as its surface waters are not saturated with CO2, it can buffer a large fraction of the resulting CO2, with an equilibrium constant between aqueous CO2 and atmospheric CO2. At a certain point this "CO2 landfill" or rather "CO2 seafill" saturates. Assuming for simplicity a constant CO2 emission rate, thus without increasing the rate of CO2 emission, atmospheric CO2 rises at an initial rate (slower than CO2 emission rate, since a large fraction is initially absorbed by the ocean surface waters); until surface waters are (near) saturation, at which point atmospheric CO2 starts rising at a much higher rate since the surface waters no longer absorb significant amounts of CO2.

If one then desparately and miraculously succeeds in somehow halting continued excess CO2 emissions, the globe will still heat due to the added atmospheric CO2, also heating these surface waters, decreasing gaseous solubilities, resulting not just in aqueous O2 depletion but also sadly in "CO2 blowback": the large fraction of CO2 historically dissolved in the surface waters turns back into the atmosphere, even though miraculously excess antropogenic CO2 emissions were halted!

From a "carbon credits" perspective, where players are traditionally viewed as nations and corporations, surface waters rear their head and releases the historical CO2 debth.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there has ever been a time in all of human history with so many existential threats. Between catastrophic climate change and resource depletion, AI, the danger of nuclear war, COVID and other potential pandemics, economic insecurity for most of the population, and farmed irrational extremist political movements, we seem to have quite a lot to deal with. Might as well just have Carrington Event 2.0 and b…

I know I being picky, but nuclear war is the only existential threat there. It's unlikely that any pandemic would make humans go extinct. Covid showed that isolating population groups is possible, especially if bounded by water (Australia, new Zealand etc). Mass death sure, but not extinction. Climate change will probably reduce livable spaces (although people already live in extremes like Alaska and Sahara) but huma…

The potential huge impact of climate change could very well start the nuclear war. Masses of hungry, broke and desperate people don't do good for politics as we've seen again and again in the past. One can only hope that they turn against corporations and the 1% instead of electing fascists.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#140
post #136
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ray never denied receiving industry funding, and is pretty transparent about it. It's pretty common in fisheries science. Greenpeace's big gotcha was rather feeble in my opinion. As you said he is prolific in the field. Yet the best Greenpeace could do was get a correction published on a minor paper to say he received industry funding in the five years prior — but that didn't support that particular research [1]. He…

You can’t deny it’s a massive conflict of interest. You cannot trust science done in such an environment, sorry.

I'm curious, Please find the list of funding bodies appended to the PLOS one article and let me know which presented a 'massive conflict of interest' due to being in the five years preceding that article?
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