Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England • Hacker News Board

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#21

Post by cmelbye » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:43 PM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #19

The current political and legal sell-out to the US makes me, and I believe many fellow-Europeans, increasingly angry in a way that is fundamentally different from any anti-American feelings for instance during the Bush-years. Disagreeing with US foreign policy is one thing, but being on the receiving end of US meddling through political and legal corruption in a way that undermines our civil rights cuts way deeper.

It wouldn't be possible if you government didn't cooperate. They're just as much to blame in this case.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#22

Post by desas » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:43 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #13

Apart from the general ridiculousness of the US extraditing copyright infringers but not pedophiles: Do the Brits really not have any outrage over this? If the PRC successfully extradited an American for some real or imagined digital crime (say, building and hosting the website of a designated terrorist organization), we'd be in an uproar. At least, I hope we would...

Brits have been complaining about this ever since the treaty was signed. I think generally we're currently more concerned about changes to our health system.

Plus the USA is hardly the PRC.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#23

Post by mrkmcknz » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:44 PM UTC

dav-id wrote: post #20

forrestthewoods wrote: post #15

The kid made $230,000 by helping users view copyrighted material they did not pay for. That sounds pretty jail worthy to me. It is however strange that he's being extradited and I generally oppose individuals "being made an example of". I'd much prefer he go through the UK system than the US.

If I recall correctly he didnt break any laws in the UK.

Correct because in the UK members of parliament are not elected to represent the complete morons at the MPAA and RIAA.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#24

Post by methoddk » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:44 PM UTC

travisp wrote: post #18

methoddk wrote: post #12

This is completely out of hand now. The US is now a country where you are guilty until proven innocent. It is disgusting to see domain seizures with no concrete basis of doing so. This kid is being extradited to the US because his website provided links to TV shows? "Copyright infringers" are treated with less dignity and respect than mass murderers and rapists.

>This is completely out of hand now. The US is now a country where you are guilty until proven innocent. Am I missing something? Has he been found guilty? Why is an extradition the same thing as being "guilty until proven innocent"? By definition, extradition is before a trial has occurred. After he has been extradited is when the trial will occur.

So his domains and servers are seized while the "investigation" is pending?

The UK could've done their part and stopped this from happening in the first place. They are way out of bounds stepping over into other countries to pursue legal action for this. The site wasn't operated in the US. Who was threatened by a link site? There's much bigger fish in the sea of copyright infringement.

SOPA and PIPA may have gotten shelved, but this just proves US will do what it wants anyway.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#25

Post by smokeyj » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:45 PM UTC

forrestthewoods wrote: post #15

The kid made $230,000 by helping users view copyrighted material they did not pay for. That sounds pretty jail worthy to me. It is however strange that he's being extradited and I generally oppose individuals "being made an example of". I'd much prefer he go through the UK system than the US.

> The kid made $230,000 by helping users view copyrighted material they did not pay for. That sounds pretty jail worthy to me.

Sounds like an entrepreneur to me.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#26

Post by toyg » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:47 PM UTC

travisp wrote: post #18

methoddk wrote: post #12

This is completely out of hand now. The US is now a country where you are guilty until proven innocent. It is disgusting to see domain seizures with no concrete basis of doing so. This kid is being extradited to the US because his website provided links to TV shows? "Copyright infringers" are treated with less dignity and respect than mass murderers and rapists.

>This is completely out of hand now. The US is now a country where you are guilty until proven innocent. Am I missing something? Has he been found guilty? Why is an extradition the same thing as being "guilty until proven innocent"? By definition, extradition is before a trial has occurred. After he has been extradited is when the trial will occur.

When the extradition process is started, it is because the relevant authorities have already decided the individual is guilty. Otherwise, they would not bother spending so much time and effort trying to apprehend him. Juries are invariably biased against foreigners, so the chances of an acquittal are basically zero.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#27

Post by travisp » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:51 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #26

travisp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is completely out of hand now. The US is now a country where you are guilty until proven innocent. Am I missing something? Has he been found guilty? Why is an extradition the same thing as being "guilty until proven innocent"? By definition, extradition is before a trial has occurred. After he has been extradited is when the trial will occur.

When the extradition process is started, it is because the relevant authorities have already decided the individual is guilty. Otherwise, they would not bother spending so much time and effort trying to apprehend him. Juries are invariably biased against foreigners, so the chances of an acquittal are basically zero.

>When the extradition process is started, it is because the relevant authorities have already decided the individual is guilty.

So, what is the right approach? Start the extradition process when you don't believe the individual is guilty? I would hope not. Taking action to bring someone to trial because you believe they are guilty is entirely different from the claim that in the US you are now "guilty until proven innocent".

Presumption of innocence means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution in the trial. It does not mean that the prosecution is required to not believe themselves that the individual is guilty.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#28

Post by drucken » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

desas wrote: post #22

scarmig wrote: post #13

Apart from the general ridiculousness of the US extraditing copyright infringers but not pedophiles: Do the Brits really not have any outrage over this? If the PRC successfully extradited an American for some real or imagined digital crime (say, building and hosting the website of a designated terrorist organization), we'd be in an uproar. At least, I hope we would...

Brits have been complaining about this ever since the treaty was signed. I think generally we're currently more concerned about changes to our health system. Plus the USA is hardly the PRC.

Actually, given the harshness of the penal system in every aspect including their plea-bargaining facet, the US may as well be the PRC compared to the EU. Also, like the PRC, the US has the death penalty.

Separately, there should be a public interest requirement on extraditions, whether by treaty or otherwise, just like there is on all other parts of the UK justice system.

This is a travesty to the individuals involved in this and many other UK-to-US extraditions and yet another embarrassment to the UK.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#29

Post by hastur » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #19

The current political and legal sell-out to the US makes me, and I believe many fellow-Europeans, increasingly angry in a way that is fundamentally different from any anti-American feelings for instance during the Bush-years. Disagreeing with US foreign policy is one thing, but being on the receiving end of US meddling through political and legal corruption in a way that undermines our civil rights cuts way deeper.

The UK made a nice gift to the US on the eve of Cameron's visit.

Re: Copyright wars heat up: US wins extradition of college kid from England

#30

Post by rlpb » Tue, Mar 13, 2012, 6:55 PM UTC

The trouble with this is that if the US has a legitimate claim on him, then so does every other country in the world, since they're all on the Internet too. And it isn't reasonable for me to be on the Internet and be expected to comply with the laws of all the countries in the world all at once.

Or is there something specific apart from being on the Internet that gives the US some kind of special claim on him?