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As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

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Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#111

Post by NovaDudely »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #74
ChatGTP wrote: post #8

Looks like we are the paper clip optimising narrow AI we’ve all been afraid of after all… We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. So ashamed to be part of of it,

> We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. Paperclips are at least real objects. Money doesnt even exist if everyone isndead, its not real.

There is a great podcast series called 'The Great Simplification' by Nate Hagens. It is basically just a series of interviews with people about the predicaments of our times. Nate has been working on this theory of 'the great simplification' being a coming event when our monetary systems catch up with the ecological systems that actually govern our world. That there is a lot of credit embedded within our very monetary system that cannot be redeemed long term.

That we have issued credits for energy and materials that we cannot actually claim at the volumes needed.

It is a compelling idea and that looks fairly plausible. Nate does a great job of walking the fine line between pessimism and optimism, something which Cory Doctoro describes as both side being defeatist.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#112

Post by NovaDudely »

000ooo000 wrote: post #107
a2tech wrote: post #35

My friends who are fishery people (biologists) are all pretty sure we've doomed commercial fisheries in the ocean. It's too late to recover and no one really wants to fix the issues. Enjoy your seafood while you can because they think they'll be gone before our generation dies out.

Mass fish death: "won't someone think of the fisheries!" Mass fishery death: "won't someone think of the seafood!" We deserve this

Pretty much. While I am but one of 8 billion people, all animal products have been off the table for a long time now. Part adaption to the future, part protection of what we have today, part ethics.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#113

Post by NovaDudely »

pirate787 wrote: post #37
a2tech wrote: post #35

My friends who are fishery people (biologists) are all pretty sure we've doomed commercial fisheries in the ocean. It's too late to recover and no one really wants to fix the issues. Enjoy your seafood while you can because they think they'll be gone before our generation dies out.

They are already growing fish meat in labs, hopefully that and farming will take some of the pressure off the wild fisheries.

The single biggest issue with lab meat is the lack of an immune system. Once we crack that then there is a real chance of this stuff working out. That said until then, I will just avoid all meats. If I have those cravings, the alternatives we have now are reasonable enough to scratch that itch even if not the same.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#114

Post by yongjik »

brutusborn wrote: post #108
beachy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atmospheric CO2 has increased by a third just since I've been alive. It's difficult to overstate just how quickly we are destroying the planet. I spend a lot of time snorkeling and I tell my kids to really take in what they see because it probably won't be there when they're parents themselves.

I think it’s good to encourage appreciation, but no need to exaggerate risks. IPCC predicts existential risks to marine ecosystems at temperatures much higher than today. Your child will probably be able to go snorkelling just fine as an adult. My local coral reefs have returned to health after a major bleeching event that was predicted to be the beginning of the end. Sometimes our catastrophic predictions are wrong,…

Collapsing marine ecosystems are not theoretical risks, they have been happening around the world for decades (if not more).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfishing#Examples_and_evide...

Or did you mean "Don't worry, the impact of oxygen level change is exaggerated, because we'll make sure those fish are gone one way or other!"?

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#115

Post by NovaDudely »

a2tech wrote: post #35

My friends who are fishery people (biologists) are all pretty sure we've doomed commercial fisheries in the ocean. It's too late to recover and no one really wants to fix the issues. Enjoy your seafood while you can because they think they'll be gone before our generation dies out.

It is in the book 'Dark Age America' by John Michael Greer, he does make mention of this that any one reading that book and is still fairly young, there will be a day when they have their last bit of seafood.

That is one of those books, you hate that his vision of the future looks so plausible.

It is a shame that in recent years he went full an anti-vax with Covid even though he explained why that kind of thinking had issue in that very book. He has also started engaging in bizarre conspiracy theories about a lot of things.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#116

Post by wolpoli »

myshpa wrote: post #18
skeaker wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point it would be better to supply the demand for fish with fish farms where they are bred to be eaten rather than pulling fish from the ocean. You could (truthfully) advertise as environmentally friendly, you would probably turn a profit, you actually would have fewer toxins than ocean fish, and ocean fish would be proportionally fished less. Much more straightforward of a process than conspiring/bribing cou…

Still few problems with this. - intensive fish farming can lead to environmental issues, such as water pollution from fish waste, excessive use of antibiotics and chemicals, and the depletion of wild fish stocks used for fish feed - some farmed fish species require a substantial amount of wild-caught fish to produce a relatively small amount of farmed fish - the conversion of natural habitats like mangroves and wetla…

All of these issues you listed could be mitigated with government regulations and a set of to be defined practices for sustainable fish farming. I am not sure why these issues lead to the conclusion that we have to switch to a plant-based diet.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#117

Post by AtlasBarfed »

brutusborn wrote: post #101
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you have the entirety of the world ecosystem, from deep ocean currents and biology, to the entire 70% of the world's surface oceans, to the jungle rainforests, arctic/antarctic ice, atmospheric changes, solar radiation variation, historical records, 100% accurate computer simulations/predictors, all nailed down? All the interaction of species, effects of (mass) extinctions? Invasive species? Habitat destruction,…

Yeah I’ve read a lot actually, which is why I’ve changed my mind about the severity of these problems. Most predictions are just conjecture with no real link to good models. I’m always happy to read more papers if you know of any good ones. All the ones I’ve read on low ocean oxygen have convinced me it isn’t a very critical problem. Just a few things you get wrong: thinking models are 100% accurate, thinking scienti…

Actually, I know you don't. The complexity involved exceeds the intellectual ability of a single person, no matter how arrogant they are.

Because you, single person, do not have the ability to ingest all the data, do not have access to the necessary supercomputers, do not have the decades of time to write and adapt the simulation software, do not have the PhDs.

You are simply one brain. Who very most certainly does not have the accuracy of the current models (yours is FAR less reliable, because it is your lone opinion), you think you have everything nailed down to brazenly assert "it won't be that bad", and well, you are just one dumb internet person, so I KNOW you don't know enough to back up your opinion.

If you followed the simulations alone, you'd see that they have had a surprisingly good track, even the late-1990s models are doing disturbingly well (which were more pessimistic than what the climate scientists wanted to say back then).

Ocean acidification and the potential collapse of oceanic phytoplankton should scare the living shit out of you. Fishery health aren't really the concern if oxygen production from phytoplankton drops. The inability to eat sushi is far down the list from "inability to breathe". Hint: phytoplankton produce 70% of the oxygen we breathe, and our society is actively participating in Russian Roulette on a global scale to see if we kill ourselves with that, among other "fun games" that "you aren't concerned about".

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#118

Post by 000ooo000 »

NovaDudely wrote: post #112
000ooo000 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass fish death: "won't someone think of the fisheries!" Mass fishery death: "won't someone think of the seafood!" We deserve this

Pretty much. While I am but one of 8 billion people, all animal products have been off the table for a long time now. Part adaption to the future, part protection of what we have today, part ethics.

Yep. 5 years for me. Not sure what will get me first: the protein deficiency, or some kind of stroke from reading rake kickflip justifications for maintaining the animal ag status quo.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#119

Post by 4RealFreedom »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #97
brutusborn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think any of these are really that critical: they will become a problem in a few centuries if we do absolutely nothing but will likely be fine. Take ocean deoxygenation: it happens locally due to fertiliser runoff in places that have a history of low oxygen. It’s good to put some resources towards fixing this, but it’s not useful to think of it as an extinction level problem that we “now have.”

Wow, you have the entirety of the world ecosystem, from deep ocean currents and biology, to the entire 70% of the world's surface oceans, to the jungle rainforests, arctic/antarctic ice, atmospheric changes, solar radiation variation, historical records, 100% accurate computer simulations/predictors, all nailed down? All the interaction of species, effects of (mass) extinctions? Invasive species? Habitat destruction,…

That was misguided and rude. Please follow the comment guidelines.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#120

Post by crazygringo »

beachy wrote: post #96
Apofis wrote: post #3

Aside from Ocean Acidification, uncontrollable Algae Blooms, and Melting Sea Ice, we now have Ocean Deoxygenation on our plates. We also have unprecedented droughts on land as well. Humans really will be the next mass extinction event on this planet. So incredibly selfish.

Atmospheric CO2 has increased by a third just since I've been alive. It's difficult to overstate just how quickly we are destroying the planet. I spend a lot of time snorkeling and I tell my kids to really take in what they see because it probably won't be there when they're parents themselves.

Good lord. I thought you were exaggerating but indeed, up by a third since 1958:

https://www.co2levels.org/

I consider myself pretty aware of climate change but I suddenly realize I've never actually looked at the direct numbers. That's scary.

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