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As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

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Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#101

Post by brutusborn »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #97
brutusborn wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think any of these are really that critical: they will become a problem in a few centuries if we do absolutely nothing but will likely be fine. Take ocean deoxygenation: it happens locally due to fertiliser runoff in places that have a history of low oxygen. It’s good to put some resources towards fixing this, but it’s not useful to think of it as an extinction level problem that we “now have.”

Wow, you have the entirety of the world ecosystem, from deep ocean currents and biology, to the entire 70% of the world's surface oceans, to the jungle rainforests, arctic/antarctic ice, atmospheric changes, solar radiation variation, historical records, 100% accurate computer simulations/predictors, all nailed down? All the interaction of species, effects of (mass) extinctions? Invasive species? Habitat destruction,…

Yeah I’ve read a lot actually, which is why I’ve changed my mind about the severity of these problems. Most predictions are just conjecture with no real link to good models. I’m always happy to read more papers if you know of any good ones. All the ones I’ve read on low ocean oxygen have convinced me it isn’t a very critical problem.

Just a few things you get wrong: thinking models are 100% accurate, thinking scientists have everything “nailed down” and assuming that I don’t know enough to back up my opinion.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#102

Post by NovaDudely »

bruce511 wrote: post #70
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there has ever been a time in all of human history with so many existential threats. Between catastrophic climate change and resource depletion, AI, the danger of nuclear war, COVID and other potential pandemics, economic insecurity for most of the population, and farmed irrational extremist political movements, we seem to have quite a lot to deal with. Might as well just have Carrington Event 2.0 and b…

I know I being picky, but nuclear war is the only existential threat there. It's unlikely that any pandemic would make humans go extinct. Covid showed that isolating population groups is possible, especially if bounded by water (Australia, new Zealand etc). Mass death sure, but not extinction. Climate change will probably reduce livable spaces (although people already live in extremes like Alaska and Sahara) but huma…

Here in Australia we regularly talk about the tyranny of distance that impacts us. In Covid, it turned into the world largest moat.

With the rise of ecological blow back, resource scarcity/hoarding, and seeing the seeds of authoritarian policies being planted - I suspect that this moat will be used in future to welcome immigrants with open arms. Those arms being rockets, machine guns and grenades.

A grim future ahead if true.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#103

Post by NovaDudely »

harry8 wrote: post #69
minsight wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hope you can eat that.

Ok this conversation can get pretty silly, let's try to avoid that. Now at 2023 we have lifted more people out of poverty and ill-health in both raw numbers and as a percentage of the population than any time in the planet's history. Without prescribing anything in so far as dealing with the world's problems, be careful flippantly trading that off. It may not be you, your friends and your family that previously watch…

It is easy to look rich when you are maximizing the credit cards.

It is easy to pull people out of poverty when short term thinking can overshoot beyond long term carrying capacity.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#104

Post by netsharc »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #74
ChatGTP wrote: post #8

Looks like we are the paper clip optimising narrow AI we’ve all been afraid of after all… We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. So ashamed to be part of of it,

> We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. Paperclips are at least real objects. Money doesnt even exist if everyone isndead, its not real.

I just had a curious realization.. Money is a representation of trust, it says so on the dollar bill, that the piece of paper can be traded for something at the US treasury, and we all trust this to be true. Indeed "credit" means "trust". So I wonder if we've been wanting to collect bigger and bigger amounts of "trust" because, hey, who doesn't like being trusted? And funny how people can't see when just looking at your briefcase or bank account full of money if you got your money through scamming people (exploiting their trust), so indeed this decoupling has been harmful (if you're a decent guy but you're homeless, people don't look at you twice, if you're Elon Musk people treat you nice...)

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#105

Post by NovaDudely »

mandmandam wrote: post #34
moffkalast wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iirc the research regarding what kind of emotion evoking news gets most attention shows it's mainly awe and anger. Sadness doesn't get you very far, so there's a direct incentive to not report on any collapse related stuff we can't really do anything about anymore, since it won't get shared at all. Could spin it as an angry piece condemning the fossil fuel lobby, but that probably gets you cut off the next time there…

> that probably gets you cut off the next time there's a burning oil rig to report on. More likely, the money from the expensive green-washing ads they buy is cut off. Anyway, I'm sick of profit motive being an excuse for media complicity in atrocity.

You know how a lot of people see those in the past as being ignorant and we wonder how they could not see the silly things they did... the older I get, the more that is how I see nowadays.

Folks will look back on us in decades/centuries from now and go "what were they thinking? They knew what was happening, knew what had to be done but then didn't do it".

There are two books by William T Volleman, the Carbon Ideologies series. The first few pages are written to the people who would potentially read these books in 200 years trying to explain how the people of today are not much different than they are. It was a wise move to frame these things like that.

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#106

Post by 000ooo000 »

myshpa wrote: post #62
swsdsailor wrote: post #14

I am very interested in using tech to help the ocean. Does anyone have ideas for technical solutions to this?

Yes. 1. stop overfishing by switching to plant based diets 2. stop fishing ... even fish we don't fish, but decimate (as bycatch) will rebound 3. stop fishing ... there won't be as much plastic to entangle fish, mammals and turtles (49% of great pacific garbage patch is fishing nets) 4. stop animal ag ... minimize agricultural runoff from farms and fields to stop creating dead zones in the ocean 5. stop animal ag ...…

Cool. That sounds tough, though. Do you have any solutions where I can do nothing? How about innovation? /s

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#107

Post by 000ooo000 »

a2tech wrote: post #35

My friends who are fishery people (biologists) are all pretty sure we've doomed commercial fisheries in the ocean. It's too late to recover and no one really wants to fix the issues. Enjoy your seafood while you can because they think they'll be gone before our generation dies out.

Mass fish death: "won't someone think of the fisheries!"

Mass fishery death: "won't someone think of the seafood!"

We deserve this

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#108

Post by brutusborn »

beachy wrote: post #96
Apofis wrote: post #3

Aside from Ocean Acidification, uncontrollable Algae Blooms, and Melting Sea Ice, we now have Ocean Deoxygenation on our plates. We also have unprecedented droughts on land as well. Humans really will be the next mass extinction event on this planet. So incredibly selfish.

Atmospheric CO2 has increased by a third just since I've been alive. It's difficult to overstate just how quickly we are destroying the planet. I spend a lot of time snorkeling and I tell my kids to really take in what they see because it probably won't be there when they're parents themselves.

I think it’s good to encourage appreciation, but no need to exaggerate risks.

IPCC predicts existential risks to marine ecosystems at temperatures much higher than today. Your child will probably be able to go snorkelling just fine as an adult. My local coral reefs have returned to health after a major bleeching event that was predicted to be the beginning of the end. Sometimes our catastrophic predictions are wrong, or exaggerated.

https://www.aims.gov.au/reef-monitoring/gbr-condition-summar...

Re: As ocean oxygen levels dip, fish face an uncertain future

#109

Post by NovaDudely »

ChatGTP wrote: post #8

Looks like we are the paper clip optimising narrow AI we’ve all been afraid of after all… We don’t make paper clips though, we’ve optimised to make money and turn everything into it. So ashamed to be part of of it,

This is a point Daniel Schmachtenberger has argued. We worry about rouge AI's and the paper clip optimizer problem and yet that is essentially the path our current economic system operates on.
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