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Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

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181–187 of 187 posts

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#181
I was trying to think of an alternative, which the bankers could do, if they wanted, which would be narrowly focused on climate change. Like ESG, the idea is that it's something big financial actors can do without getting government on board.

First thought:

Just bid up the price of oil. Make it too expensive for the refiners. Drive gasoline up to $50/gallon. Every drop on the market, just buy up and do not burn.

There is an issue with this, of course, which is that it still (hugely) incentivises extraction. You don't want to have to physically store the stuff.

But you also can't pay for notional oil left underground: "Yeah, trust us, we didn't sell that barrel to somebody else for additional money."

Second thought:

You could subsidize the hell out of a substitute though, thereby killing demand. Investors poured money into Uber at a loss just so it could eat up market share, right? Why can't you do that with solar panels and electrification? (Where's my electric car paid for by the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fu... oh.) You can even create network/lockin effects: Electric cars cost half the price, so everybody buys one, so gas stations go out of business.

These are very expensive strategies, but they seem to directly use the price mechanism to try to achieve your goals. Is something cheaper and more efficient possible? Something about efficient markets would seem to imply that that isn't possible, to the extent that efficient markets exist...

Idea 3:

Continuing brainstorming --

- Naked-short futures for beachfront lots in Florida and Bangladesh?

- Buy (underpriced) insurance (basically PUTs) on same?

I feel a creative finance person could come up with lots of things.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#182

Often companies with good ESG scores optimize for having good scores. Its like studying to the test and they may have particularly poor results outside of the test that they have studied for. Also, ESG is political and like all things that involve politics, many things that may be good for the score may be bad for the environment. Easiest example to see is in energy with things like nuclear power, and 'biomass' and c…

Nuclear energy is clean energy

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#183
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that those credits are called "flowers". I'm only halfway joking. A lot of people do try to address their guilt over bad behavior by doing nice things. And a lot of people who receive those nice things don't want to think about why they are being treated well. The easiest person to scam is the one who wants to believe the scam. And any kind of credit program will attract people who want to believe.

I've seen a comedy show about that. Husband buys flowers "just because" and the wife starts crying uncontrollably, convinced he's cheating on her. Because there is no way he's just nice. The kicker is he literally just wanted to be nice to her. While the other men in the family were trying to convince him that it's a bad idea.

The secret is to always be nice she will never suspect.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#184
post #67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power if done safely is a much better alternative than say windmills which require extensive mining to make and kill thousands of birds a year.

You’ll hate cats then https://www.statista.com/chart/15195/wind-turbines-are-not-k...

Cats kill 2.4b birds a year? Buildings kill 600m? These numbers are completely unbelievable. Were the made up in a left-wing think tank staffed entirely by birds?

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#185
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes no sense why such ephemeral concepts should somehow lead to better investments. Each component alone makes sense, if interpreted in a way that is consistent with shareholder capitalism. 1. Environmental. Interpreted in terms of shareholder capitalism, Environmental might mean something like "how well does this company work as a hedge against increasingly likely tail risks, and how resilient will it be to p…

Except 1. 'Environmental' covers being net-good for the environment, neither meaning not damaging the environment at all nor meaning resilient against environmental changes. So it doesn't hedge anything. 2. 'Social' covers increasing the percentage of employees that are of disadvantaged minority groups, not decreasing the percentage of employees that are anonymously observed to be overpaid/incompetent. It's fun to pr…

I think you missed the tongue-in-cheek tone of my comment, and the last paragraph.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#186

Matt Levine: It's Easy to Make Oil Companies ESG: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-07-12/it-s-e...

Also, there's evidence that moving investment from polluting to non-polluting industries at best has almost no impact, and potentially makes things worse: https://www.icpmnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Count...

This topic was discussed on freakanomics for those wanting an easy form.

Re: Companies with good ESG scores pollute as much as low-rated rivals

#187

ESG is tricky to talk about thanks to the politization of it. I work on some projects that involve ESG data and I have some thoughts. First there's LOTS of factors. If you bunch them all up into one number, it becomes meaningless as the article describes. I would think wiser minds would use this data to make investment decisions based on some specific risk, like hedging against some environmental disaster which may a…

Goodhart's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" Any ESG system that uses a calculated number composed of many areas will quickly fall prey to Goodhart's Law. With an E, an S and a G to work on, the areas for change are numerous enough that Goodhart's Law holds even in a non-cynical world. When an edict that "We need to increase our X sco…

> are likely limited in what they can do.

If they aren't suffering under these rules, which will almost be a certainty.

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