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Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

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Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#71

Post by mohaine »

lastofthemojito wrote: post #47
hamandcheese wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.

I feel like that's quite a stretch of the word comparable. The Model 3 is 14% heavier than the Audi: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401999985&veh2... And the Ioniq5 is 35% heavier than the RAV4: https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/?veh1=401958795&veh2...

From Google: Model 3: 3,862 to 4,048 lbs Audi S3: 3,527 lbs

9-14% seems comparable IMO and worst case roughly half he mentioned 1000 lbs.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#72

Post by rzzzt »

lstodd wrote: post #43
alex7734 wrote: post #24

> it could release highly toxic hydrogen sulfide gas. How bad is it in real world conditions? Because from what I'm reading it's not the "it makes you sick" kind of toxic, but rather the "it kills you in seconds" kind of toxic.

Rotten eggs smell is just about everything you can get from this kind of experiment. Now if they scale it up. but at any scale that makes sense economically you can get suffocated by just about any gas you can think of. Like helium or hydrogen.

H2S is also a byproduct of crude oil processing. The nose is easily overwhelmed by the smell even at low concentrations, and it becomes hard to notice before it strikes.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#73

Post by arh68 »

iamatworknow wrote: post #57
hamandcheese wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.

I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 l…

Your numbers seem off...

Base models: 3,370 vs 3,968. Flagship models: 3,800 vs 4,663.

So 600-850 lbs differential. Not 1,000, but not just an extra person.

To be fair, the Hyundai does seem larger (12" longer wheelbase).

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#74

Post by hinkley »

Detrytus wrote: post #51
jackmott42 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

energy density hasn't really changed for 15 years, price dropped a lot though, but price drop has also paused recently. There is no telling if any progress will be made or not. Maybe! Maybe not.

Actually, when demand for EVs goes up, lithium mining won't be able to keep up, so in the next decade or so we'll see steep increase in battery prices.

In the next decade you will see more reliance on technology that becomes cheaper than simply throwing lithium at the problem.

It's the same thing with many techs. In the 70's we thought we would run out of oil by 2000, and a lot of asshats in the 80's and 90's crowed about how stupid those so-called experts were.

What happened in the 80's and 90's was ground sensing radar found more oil, horizontal drilling found ways to access more of what was there, and zeolites saw widespread use as a catalyst to increase the amount of gas and diesel recovered from a barrel of oil. And over time production of zeolites made that process work better and better. It's very much like when Apple went to non-replaceable batteries. Battery life doubled in that model because 3 different parts of the problem got improvements. Density, volume, and power management all contributed almost 30% each.

Between "Oh Shit" and "Told Ya", we could produce twice as much fossil fuel as we knew how to do at the time. The same will happen with Lithium. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Replace.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#75

Post by jncfhnb »

alex7734 wrote: post #24

> it could release highly toxic hydrogen sulfide gas. How bad is it in real world conditions? Because from what I'm reading it's not the "it makes you sick" kind of toxic, but rather the "it kills you in seconds" kind of toxic.

Depending on concentrations required for consequences a smelly gas is much safer than something like CO

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#76

Post by Astronaut3315 »

molsongolden wrote: post #50
megaman821 wrote: post #12

This will be neat if it works but really there isn't going to be a huge market for 500+ mile cars vs the cost savings of getting a 300-400 mile car. The exception might be road-trippers and people who do a lot of towing but I suspect that is a much smaller population than people tend to think.

The additional capacity might be wanted in cold climates. The massive range drop when running the cabin heater plus slow charging in cold environments definitely makes me pause when considering an EV.

I’ve found that the range of my EV is overkill in summer and about right in winter. I live in Minnesota, USA where the winters tend to be cold.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#77

Post by oblio »

molsongolden wrote: post #50
megaman821 wrote: post #12

This will be neat if it works but really there isn't going to be a huge market for 500+ mile cars vs the cost savings of getting a 300-400 mile car. The exception might be road-trippers and people who do a lot of towing but I suspect that is a much smaller population than people tend to think.

The additional capacity might be wanted in cold climates. The massive range drop when running the cabin heater plus slow charging in cold environments definitely makes me pause when considering an EV.

Let's be real here.

If you live in any kind of cold-ish climate (below 10C) and want comfort, imagine a super common scenario:

- heating on

- air temperature below 10C

- highway speeds, so a steady speed of ~130kmph

- car costing less than €30k

Well, guess what, there are barely any EVs costing less than €30k in Europe, and even if there were, their range would be 200km or less under those conditions.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#78

Post by iamatworknow »

ultrarunner wrote: post #68
iamatworknow wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 l…

Not to devolve into splitting hairs, but your minimum range is comparing the heaviest premium AWD ICE vehicle to the FWD-only standard model electric, and the electric is still heavier.

Yeah, I missed that there were the two lines for the Ioniq 5 weight based on the drivetrain, and a column that was not obviously hidden with my window size, my bad.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#79

Post by mrguyorama »

snoman wrote: post #37
ninkendo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also why the F150 lightning appears to be an absolute flop: Its range goes to crap when you're towing, and people who want F150's at least think of themselves as people who want to be able to tow. (Actual towing with F150's is likely low, but most people who buy one, want to have the option.)

I thought it was a flop because it was basically impossible to actually buy one due to availability?

And they had battery issues early on that gave EV skeptical people an easy out to ignore them.

Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery

#80

Post by iamatworknow »

arh68 wrote: post #73
iamatworknow wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 l…

Your numbers seem off... Base models: 3,370 vs 3,968. Flagship models: 3,800 vs 4,663. So 600-850 lbs differential. Not 1,000, but not just an extra person. To be fair, the Hyundai does seem larger (12" longer wheelbase).

Yeah...I messed up. Damn window size and two different drivetrains for the Ioniq. Side note, web design sucks.
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