> 750 Wh/kg is great. To put it mildly. Energy density in the current leaders in that category, lithium ion batteries, 250-270 wh/kg. So, provided a similar or better ratio of watt-hours to unit of volume, we’re basically looking at tripling the energy storage of EVs or significant weight reduction, in the ideal scenario of this design being a safe and cost effective replacement for current batteries.
Out of curiosity, What is the wh/kg for petrol?
Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
61–70 of 211 posts
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it could only reduce the weight of current EVs that would be a win. Most electric vehicles weight 1000 lbs or more than their ICE counterparts, and in the extreme case of the Hummer, the total weight is over 9000 lbs. Vehicles seem to be continuously ballooning in size, so whether that continues or eventual legislation forces more reasonable sizes, higher energy density would be very welcome.
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
The Audi is 3,527 lbs, where the Model 3 is 4,048 lbs. The Tesla is a bit longer and narrower, but they're both big cars.
The Rav4 FWD is 3370 lbs, where the Ionic 5 standard range FWD is about 4,000 lbs (the SEL is 4,300).
If the best examples are "only 500-700 lbs heavier" I think there is still room for progress. Rounded, that's the rough 1000 lbs I suggested above.
Electric cars are, in aggregate, simply heavier right now— with implications for crash safety for everyone (especially those outside that vehicle). Any progress toward increasing energy density (and vehicle size) will confer a net benefit to society.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it could only reduce the weight of current EVs that would be a win. Most electric vehicles weight 1000 lbs or more than their ICE counterparts, and in the extreme case of the Hummer, the total weight is over 9000 lbs. Vehicles seem to be continuously ballooning in size, so whether that continues or eventual legislation forces more reasonable sizes, higher energy density would be very welcome.
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
They're not "comparable" at all. You're probably comparing the lightest model 3 (which you cannot buy anymore, the newer models are heavier) to the heaviest Audi A3 model on the market otherwise they aren't "very comparable"
Same for the model S, it's on average about 200kg heavier than a BMW 5 series across the range from most basic model to heaviest on both.
If a car has a 500kg battery, and tech improvements can make that 200-300kg for the same range that would be quite good. Handling improves, safety improves, the suspension can be simpler and in the end also range in stop&go traffic would improve with less weight.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think for the EV skeptics it’s easy to forget how fast battery chemistry has been evolving. There’s an common assumption that the EV status quo of 300 mile range at barely-affordable prices will continue forever, and therefore with all the woes surrounding charging and bad weather affecting range, EVs are dead in the water. Ten years ago $30k got you 75 miles of range out of a Nissan Leaf. Fast forward to present d…
I remain skeptical until the products are real and affordable. No reason to buy an electric car now if they'll have potentially double the range in a few years.
Yet another problem that could have been avoided if government had had the foresight to enforce a technology-agnostic swappable battery standard.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it could only reduce the weight of current EVs that would be a win. Most electric vehicles weight 1000 lbs or more than their ICE counterparts, and in the extreme case of the Hummer, the total weight is over 9000 lbs. Vehicles seem to be continuously ballooning in size, so whether that continues or eventual legislation forces more reasonable sizes, higher energy density would be very welcome.
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
It’s not a meme. Battery electric powertrains are heavier than ICE + fuel equivalents.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
Maybe the S3 can afford to add more insulation compared to the Model 3? I mean Teslas aren't known for good road noise isolation so if they do reduce battery weight they can add some more for the insulation for example.
Whereas Audi are known for excellent noise isolation, road, engine, to the point that in some models they pipe in engine noise because it's almost too isolated.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#67This will be neat if it works but really there isn't going to be a huge market for 500+ mile cars vs the cost savings of getting a 300-400 mile car. The exception might be road-trippers and people who do a lot of towing but I suspect that is a much smaller population than people tend to think.
Also people who don't do all their driving in the city. That 250-mile battery shrinks a lot when your whole trip is at 80mph.
Plus it’s not always 70° in most places so the estimate is almost always optimistic to begin with
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
When will this meme die? A Model 3 is very comparable in weight to an Audi S3. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is comparable weight and interior volume to a Toyota Rav 4. The Hummer is a monster either way and is not a good sample.
I always bought into this "meme", in part because just about every EV review I've seen mentions having to compensate for the extra weight which makes those cars less performant at times, so decided to look it up based on your quoted vehicles here, and figured I'd save anyone else the same search: A 2023 Rav 4 has a curb weight of between 3615 and 3775 lb [1] A 2023 Ioniq 5 has a curb weight of between 3968 and 4663 l…
Not to devolve into splitting hairs, but your minimum range is comparing the heaviest premium AWD ICE vehicle to the FWD-only standard model electric, and the electric is still heavier.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#69This will be neat if it works but really there isn't going to be a huge market for 500+ mile cars vs the cost savings of getting a 300-400 mile car. The exception might be road-trippers and people who do a lot of towing but I suspect that is a much smaller population than people tend to think.
What are you on? Having battery with 3x battery capacity will be an absolute game changer. This will do a lot of good, if it gets into production. For one thing, it will make EVs competitive with diesel, which will be s huge win for getting us of oil.
Re: Tell HN: I think I found Toyota's battery
#70> 750 Wh/kg is great. To put it mildly. Energy density in the current leaders in that category, lithium ion batteries, 250-270 wh/kg. So, provided a similar or better ratio of watt-hours to unit of volume, we’re basically looking at tripling the energy storage of EVs or significant weight reduction, in the ideal scenario of this design being a safe and cost effective replacement for current batteries.
I think for the EV skeptics it’s easy to forget how fast battery chemistry has been evolving. There’s an common assumption that the EV status quo of 300 mile range at barely-affordable prices will continue forever, and therefore with all the woes surrounding charging and bad weather affecting range, EVs are dead in the water. Ten years ago $30k got you 75 miles of range out of a Nissan Leaf. Fast forward to present d…
To me it all still comes down to charging infrastructure. The current state of batteries is good enough for me, but I live in an apartment and can't charge at home, and the availability/reliability local charging stations are a crap shoot, nevermind charging on a road trip.
But when (if?) I own my own house and can charge at home, I'll be in even with the current state of batteries.