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Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

electrek.co

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Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#231

Post by Timon3 »

filcuk wrote: post #138
jjulius wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheaper to manufacture, yes, but the cost of the hardware is still included in what you pay for the software-locked car. You've paid for the hardware and you own it, even if it's software-locked. At that point, you're just being asked to fork over $1k or whatever the additional charge is for what essentially amounts to an "on/off" switch. Edit: Hell, to make it sound even more stupid, you're being asked to fork over…

That's no different to paying $1K for a CAD licence. People just need to come to terms with the fact that the line between HW and SW is becoming blurry. Obviously, I don't like up-paying for features I don't get to use. The price of the product must be the same, having benefited from mass production. With that being the case, I'm actually glad I have the option to save money now and upgrade later. The concept isn't a…

I'm paying $1K for a CAD license because I can't write a CAD program myself. I can easily change a 0 to a 1, why should I pay $1K (or however much) for a piece of software that does this?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#232

Post by autoexec »

spoiler wrote: post #176
snypher wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably not productive, but I think the response would be; I bought the software from you so it's mine now.

Yeah these discussions always give me a bit of cognitive dissonance. On one hand, I like owning my software or content I purchased (talking about DRM) On the other, people expect most things to be a "live service" in terms of updates, which isn't sustainable if you only ever get paid a small onetime fee for your software. If you make the fee large, like Modo/Photoshop did, then it acts as a financial gatekeeper to yo…

> On the other, people expect most things to be a "live service" in terms of updates

Do they? Most people I know don't want anything to update as long as it's working. They don't want new features. They don't want new UI changes. They'll dismiss/ignore prompts to update for as long as they possibly can. In very very rare cases people want "live service". They want their GPS to give them traffic information for example, but otherwise they don't want anything but bug fixes.

Photoshop for example doesn't need to be constantly updated and a version of photoshop from 10-15 years ago would be just fine for the vast majority of people. The idea that software has to either be insanely expensive or a subscription is a false dichotomy.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#233

Post by RajT88 »

jrmg wrote: post #165
RajT88 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with this. The DMCA makes stuff like this illegal. Recall that when CD copy protection was starting to be deployed, you could negate it with a black marker. The DMCA then made black markers illegal, because it bans "tools which may be used to circumvent copyright" as well as the "circumvention of copy protection measures". (Not that anyone tried to enforce it, but the letter of the law was pretty clear that bla…

Black markers are/were very obviously not illegal. The law doesn’t work like code, it’s filtered by humans. No court would ever come to the conclusion that something as mundane as black markers are illegal to possess.

You almost understood the point.

The DMCA is a problem because putting copy protection on (for example) heated seats is a similar level of silliness to outlawing black markers.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#234

Post by shmatt »

Aloha wrote: post #98
theluketaylor wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…

I feel different about extra cores on a CPU than I do about heated seats. The manufacturing price delta between an 8 core CPU and a 16 core, nowadays is functionally meaningless. The manufacturing cost between a car with heated seats and without headset seats is functioningaflly meaningful. The way I see it, for things like heated seats or CarPlay, I'm already paying for the base hardware cost (plus some margin) as p…

>The manufacturing cost between a car with heated seats and without headset seats is functioningaflly meaningful.

You could probably buy something that would heat your seat at home for under $4 on Temu. And that includes multiple middle companies and shipping across the ocean. It probably costs them pennies, where the upside is, this owner doesn't want heated seats, but a car can easily have 2-3 owners in its first 10 years. maybe the 2nd and 3rd owners will want the heated seats, worth the money it would take to install it

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#235

Post by pbhjpbhj »

eschneider wrote: post #219
fragmede wrote: post #122

The real question is Tesla Supercharger capability. If you can't plug your car into that network, then you've lost a ton of value. But here's the thing. In order to disable supercharging, Tesla remotes into your vehicle to turn it off. It doesn't happen on the charger side, it happens on the vehicle. So if you have root on your Tesla, you can make sure you can always supercharge, which isn't mentioned anywhere else.

Here's a question for the lawyers out there: if you notify Tesla that they're no longer authorized to access YOUR car, and they remote into it anyways, would that come under Computer Fraud and Abuse?

IANAL. It seems like it should probably be covered anyway, without the notification. Assumed consent would cover updates and improvements. No-one is consenting to their car being crippled, surely.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#236

Post by jxf »

technothrasher wrote: post #203
mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

This market already exists for things like enabling Navigation on VW/Audi cars. People were offering to enable the hidden Android Auto support on my Porsche Macan for $600, which I almost went for until I found the scripts and instructions to do it myself.

Hidden as in it's not available normally, or hidden as in it's a paid feature?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#237

Post by hparadiz »

theluketaylor wrote: post #54
Libcat99 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat torn too. IBM and I'm sure others have shipped enterprise hardware for years that was partially locked. You might get a machine with 16 cpus but you only paid for 8, for example, but you could license the rest as you grew. It seems a little similar and it was in no way underhanded, everyone knew what the deal was. However I'll echo what another poster said. I say Tesla should be free to sell whatever the…

I don’t mind hardware shipping locked and being an optional fee to unlock. I have paid for the rear heated seats in my model 3. What I’m vehemently opposed to is ongoing fees for things that don’t have ongoing costs. BMW wants to charge monthly for seat heaters or carplay, but those things are not a service and don’t have ongoing costs for BMW to provide. If anything creating an ongoing software lock creates an avail…

My Honda has heated seats. I bought the car in Hawaii and brought it to Socal with me. I didn't care about heated seats when I got the car at all. It just came with my trim. It was nice having it when I went skiing but I would never remember to turn on a premium service for one ski trip and then turn it back off. For a premium car I'd resent it on my ride up the mountain. It would ruin the experience for me entirely just because of how much I'd overthink the cost value benefit in my head. It would seriously make me unreasonably upset. Hard pass on any car that charges monthly for it.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#239

Post by mgiampapa »

technothrasher wrote: post #203
mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

This market already exists for things like enabling Navigation on VW/Audi cars. People were offering to enable the hidden Android Auto support on my Porsche Macan for $600, which I almost went for until I found the scripts and instructions to do it myself.

I did the same on a Mazda CX5 a few years back, but it was a software only hack to get root first. I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#240

Post by brewtide »

vessenes wrote: post #47

Pretty sophisticated attack vector: low voltage attack on AMD secure execution environment during boot. I wonder how many tries you need to get whatever bits you need in the right place. Also, I imagine you only need to cut 12V wires to do this, but I admire the willingness to get in there direct on these systems. I'd be a little nervous to make those cuts personally. Buried in the article is the claim that this will…

Semi related question I suppose. Do the Teslas simply use GPS for their location information? If so, couldn't one spoof the GPS using a hackRF or similar?
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