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Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

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Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So make lots of noise politically about that. How? I've seen similar ideas but the best they do is resonate really nicely in this echo chamber.

Send letters and call your Senators and House representatives. Donate to them the maximum you’re legally allowed to and when you get the staffer call asking for more money, give them an (respectful) earful. All it takes most of the time is a dozen people pushing the issue for a rep to make up their mind on a bill. On contentious issues, a few hundred persistent constituents will convince even Senators in large states…

None of what you suggest has any impact, and your model of how many people it takes to influence a Senator is frankly delusional. A max donation to a campaign will get you a signed thank-you card if you're lucky.

Policy on stuff like tech is set by staffers, most of whom work from material helpfully pre-drafted for them by lobbyists. There are some legislators (like Wyden of Oregon) who have very good in-house people on tech policy, while others have no expertise and have to rely on outside parties. But the idea that anyone can be bought for a donation is heartbreakingly naive (and fortunately false). Large donations at best get your calls answered by the junior staffer whose job it is to protect the Senator/Congressman from ever having to talk to people like you directly.

Major legislation on tech is rare, and it's generally much easier to kill something you don't like than to get a provision put into it. The latter course requires being deeply plugged in to the people drafting policy (again, mid-level staff on the Hill, who have zero awareness or interest in which private individuals are making campaign contributions) and enough clout and political ability to shepherd your desired policy through the full sausage-making apparatus of Congress.

Look at the current dueling bills on crypto for an example of how the process actually works. None of it is driven by strongly-worded letters from constituents.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#273
post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

> - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more.

> - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites.

No, hard disagree. One of the things that gives google its position of power is that its both an ad exchange and a publisher (as participant in said exchange).

The correct way of breaking is NOT search+ads vs third party ads. It's search vs ads.

Make google a publisher that DOESN'T own an ad exchange and make it compete for search ad revenue on equal footing with everyone else. Lets see how well it does (I'm guessing not well).

Same goes for facebook.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#274
post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

How would Chrome make money? Right now they get a blank check from Google because dominance on the web is their business model. But if they're not supposed to sell out users interests to the ad-company, how are they supposed to earn any revenue? Sell Chrome licenses?

Just like how Firefox earns money, sell default search engine rights to highest bidder (google, bing) etc , Chrome itself can become billions of dollar business.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#275
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that point nothing would stop AdCorp from cutting a deal with the new ChromeCorp that says... I suspect judges that just ordered an antitrust would not be kind to people to people who essentially ignore the order by recreating an informal structure.

1. Judges don't order an "antitrust" case, a prosecutor must do that start a case. A judge can then rule on it OR a jury (the DOJ in fact requested an anti-trust jury trial this year) 2. Your theory was basically proven broke by the fact that ATT which was broken up in anti-trust, became ATT, again.

> A judge can then rule on it

And the result of a ruling is a court order to do something. Sure, "ordering an antitrust" is a bit less precise than "ordering a series of actions that result from a successful antitrust prosecution", but I was hoping it to be clear enough.

My point was that judge do issue orders, and they really don't like people finessing around the wording.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#277

I started skipping the top google matches for my searches since those are gamed to the tilt in some way, and are usually responsible for my computer fan kicking into overdrive because the ad code on the page is crushing the CPU harder than video encoding does.

Google should only be your backup search engine at this point.

Use Kagi or DDG or anything else as your primary search engine.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#278
post #9

I lived in china and put effort into de-googling my phone. Now I’m back in the open world and seems need do all over again. Must be a biz opp to run a proxy that strips everything google from pages and web communications. I would pay a few $/month to not be farmed without consent.

Authoritarianism is always creeping in. Its a force or evil that just never stops.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#279

I've been wary of Google for a while now, and this is further proof my wariness is justified. However, one thing I can't seem to kick is using Google search as a fallback. I use DuckDuckGo or Brave search for most of my searches, but half the time I have to add "!g" to the search to switch to Google to get actually useful results. Does anyone have any tips or tricks (or search engines I'm unfamiliar with) so I can br…

I use DDG and never feel the need to add !g, but if you do, try using !sp instead. Startpage takes Google’s results and proxies them.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#280
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems Everyone is taking for granted the claim that this is about DRM. The claim is that websites (not Google) will use this signal to allow or deny access but this is already possible with various means. How about you offer a reasonable opposing viewpoint? It's hard to see this, at best, as anything other than an extremely naive viewpoint. Every feature that can be used to lock down content and/or spy on users,…

> How about you offer a reasonable opposing viewpoint Read the proposal: https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/... >That's settled then. Full filesystem, location, camera, and microphone access should therefore come on by default without a permission dialog. Why not bring back Java and Flash while we're at it! It's not the browser vendor's fault that websites are misusing it. Now who is arguing…

> it's clear that they are being careful and are upfront about the some potential misuses and the proposed handing of them.

On the contrary, my main issue is that they identify one of the primary issues and fail to address it.

The biggest issue is that web designers will design around WEI such that the web is unusable without it. For example, while the current use case might be “captcha without WEI, no captcha with WEI”, a future use case might be “captcha with WEI, 401 without WEI”

Essentially this means an end to the open web: websites block you if you aren’t attested. If you want to browse from NewOS, tough cookies that’s not recognized by attesters

This is addressed in the proposal in “Open Questions > How will we prevent this signal from being used to exclude vendors”.

The only proposed solution is in section “Holdback”:

“[…] we are evaluating whether attestation signals must sometimes be held back for a meaningful number of requests […] Such a holdback would encourage web developers to use signals for aggregate analysis and opportunistic reduction of friction, as opposed to a quasi-allowlist […]”

This is a massive potential issue. The author acknowledges WEI could become an allowlist for the web. The author implicitly acknowledges this is most likely if most clients are using WEI (hence, the proposed solution of artificially decreasing WEI usage via holdback)

And even then, the proposed solution of holdback is not a solid one. There’s no technical reason that WEI will continue to have holdback in the future, at best maybe a google pinky promise. Further, there’s solid game theoretic reasons we can predict that holdback may vanish: if popular sites start using WEI as an allowlist, then any browser with holdback will have a degraded browsing experience on a percentage of visits. You can win market share by abandoning holdback!

As a tragedy of the commons, we can reasonably assume in the long term WEI is supported on all visits by all major browsers and a nontrivial number of websites use it as an allowlist.

In conclusion: the author admits WEI breaks the open web with sufficient market share, but the only proposed solution seems guaranteed to fail in a competitive browser marketplace based on game theory.

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