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Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

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Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#241

Post by qwytw »

mrweasel wrote: post #84
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with a breakup but arguably other than Search, DoubleClick, and Youtube, none of the others are solvent without ad money. On thing I feel we are still missing is for FSF, Wiki, Archive.org, etc. to effectively gather enough cash to start lobbying in politics and in industry much in the same way Meta and Alphabet do. Politicians/legislators are ridiculously cheap to lobby in the grand scheme of things.

Chrome is probably the best example. I don't really know how people would expect that to be a company or even a division under Alphabet. It's rather unfortunate, because I don't think Google can be trusted to build a browser anymore. Android is also a weird case. All funding is coming from Google, but the revenue isn't coming from licensing of the OS. Separating out Android and require manufacturers to pay a license…

> require manufacturers to pay a license wouldn't kill it at this point

They'd only have to pay for Google services like the Play Store. However half of them would now belong to a different company and I don't know if the Play Store would be self sustainable on it's own?

Samsung already has their own store, smaller ones will probably still stock to the Play Store for the time but increased fragmentation would be unavoidable.. That might not be a bad thing on its own, however I don't see how/why anyone would continue funding the development of the open-source bits of Android to a degree Google is capable now.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#242

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

mcny wrote: post #154
tremon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloud - the money-losing data center service. Probably gets sold to AWS Your solution to breaking up a large monopoly is to boost another (quasi-)monopoly? I'd suggest that both Amazon and Microsoft should be prevented from taking over those assets.

Yes, we will need to evaluate and approve each acquisition but I am not sure if it is even possible to break up Google. I don't have a solution to the problem but I know this — we can't do the stupidity of breaking alphabet into a bunch of small baby alphabets like what we did with at&t.I think that was complete incompetence, if not corruption. We can't have a bunch of regional companies. However, we can't do what OP…

> we can't do the stupidity of breaking alphabet into a bunch of small baby alphabets like what we did with at&t.I think that was complete incompetence, if not corruption.

After the breakup, it became trivial for me to buy my own phone and hook what I wanted up to my phone connection (including dial-up modems later).

What do you think would have granted+preserved those options, that wasn't an exercise in incompetence and corruption?

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#244

Post by qwytw »

tremon wrote: post #106
Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

Cloud - the money-losing data center service. Probably gets sold to AWS Your solution to breaking up a large monopoly is to boost another (quasi-)monopoly? I'd suggest that both Amazon and Microsoft should be prevented from taking over those assets.

But if it's indeed "money-losing" wouldn't it be just worth as much as their equipment is?

Also if we are talking about MS/Amazon/Google's cloud businesses we shouldn't ignore that these companies themselves are generally their own biggest clients which is something they could leverage to a significant degree to outcompete their rivals (initially at least)

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#245

Post by edgyquant »

pocketarc wrote: post #158
o1y32 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you have no idea how much money it costs to develop something like Chrome, especially at Google's salary.

Google currently plays Apple billions ($15B supposedly) to be the default search engine on Safari, and another half a billion a year for Firefox. For Chrome, with their gigantic market share, they'd pay billions (just like they pay Apple). Browsers are complicated, but let's not pretend that that kind of money wouldn't be enough.

I’m not sure what you mean. Google would continue to pay chrome to advertise?

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#246

Post by qwytw »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #236
actuator wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a naive and for lack of a better word stupid take > YouTube - streaming content. Probably gets sold to Netflix or AT&T or Comcast. Make Netflix more powerful? In what world is that good for competition

>> YouTube - streaming content. Probably gets sold to Netflix or AT&T or Comcast. >This is such a naive and for lack of a better word stupid take What is the not naive, not stupid, clearly-more-beneficial-than-what-we-have action that should be taken with youtube?

Doing nothing? I mean Youtube is at least competing/trying to compete with Netflix, Spotify and others to some degree at least.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#247

Post by recursive4 »

You should be as comfortable running the (proposed) attestator on your machine as you are running anti-virus software. In thinking about it relative to anti-virus, I came across an insight:

The Web Environment Integrity proposal isn't much different than requiring that, in order to receive an email, the sender both secures their machine with anti-virus and provides proof to you, the receiver, that the message in question is virus-free. Otherwise, without this proof, you won't accept the message.

Metal detectors and the requirement to pass through one to enter certain, defined spaces are probably the physical analogy that people are most familiar with.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#248

Post by delfinom »

Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

The problem with Chrome is it would have no funding unless we suddenly end up with subscription browsers.

It also means the fall of Firefox because they are still dependent on the Google moneytit.

The future I see in this direction is Chrome ends up getting a free easy takeover/hijack by Microsoft since they are have no problem throwing money at Edge.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#249

Post by qwytw »

UtopiaPunk wrote: post #83
caesil wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, Big Tech is an outsized part of what sets America's economy apart. Breaking up any of them would potentially be a footgun.

I agree that big tech is huge part of the American economy. In the 1900s, Teddy Roosevelt busted up the biggest monopolies and did it boldy. He was a strong believer in capitalism and market forces, and he believed that government had a responsibility to keep market forces working well. I know we are not in the early 1900s anymore, but I think it is interesting to ponder how the only politicians who dare to say somet…

Google is not quite Standard Oil though and generally modern tech function in an environment is different from the cartels/trusts/monopolies of the day that it's hardly comparable.

Also thankfully general regulatory situation (and arguable level corruption) isn't as quite yet as bad as it was back in the 1900s.

Re: Google’s Plan to DRM the Web Goes Against Everything Google Once Stood For

#250

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

Ialdaboth wrote: post #209
Animats wrote: post #17

It's time to start lobbying hard for an antitrust breakup of Google. This DRM plan, as abuse of a monopoly position, provides more political coverage for a forced breakup. It's pretty clear how to break up Alphabet, because it grew mostly by acquisition. - Google - search, ads on search pages and nothing more. - DoubleClick - third party ads on other sites. - Analytics - services to web sites. - Cloud - the money-los…

Wholeheartedly agree. And we shouldn't stop at Google : a large part of western capitalism in 2023 looks pretty much like a dystopian landscape out of a cyberpunk novel. It's a democratic nightmare in the making.

> a large part of western capitalism in 2023 looks pretty much like a dystopian landscape out of a cyberpunk novel. It's a democratic nightmare in the making.

My take is that this process is inevitable while the following is in play: DoJ rubberstamps monopoly creating mergers, merger desiring companies fund campaigns & otherwise gift politicians, voters keep reelecting those politicians while not overly objecting to their corruption, news orgs fail to cover mergers in a historical context while generally preferring fluff and stenography.

Those wishing to expose flaws in my analysis can use the space below.

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