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The Fertility Implosion

nytimes.com

21–30 of 47 posts

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#21

It will be interesting to see how China's single-child-per-family experiment plays out. That decision alone might very well trigger a downfall both in economic and cultural terms.

Or they may find the technological holy grail to deal with it. I truly have my hopes on China deciding to spend their growing wealth on making the next decades better for all, rather than sinking it into non-renewable energy and consumables.

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#22

>>But, over the long term, it’s better to have a growing work force, not one that’s shrinking compared with the number of retirees. Why is this true? It seems to be taken as granted that this is true. I don't think that having a growing workforce that is barely earning a living is such a good thing. It just seems unsustainable to think that we can depend on a growing workforce indefinitely to support the growing numb…

> I guess the reason this quote bothers me so much is that increasing the population in a lot of countries would mean bringing new babies to a life of poverty and misery.

A lot of people would be surprised to learn that the impoverished peoples in a many those countries are a lot happier we expect. All-in-all they aren't much less happy than we are.

Not saying that wealth isn't a good thing, but it doesn't seem to be a major determining factor in happiness. Not unless you're too poor to get your 1,800 calories or you think you're entitled to wealth you don't have, anyway.

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#23
post #22

>>But, over the long term, it’s better to have a growing work force, not one that’s shrinking compared with the number of retirees. Why is this true? It seems to be taken as granted that this is true. I don't think that having a growing workforce that is barely earning a living is such a good thing. It just seems unsustainable to think that we can depend on a growing workforce indefinitely to support the growing numb…

> I guess the reason this quote bothers me so much is that increasing the population in a lot of countries would mean bringing new babies to a life of poverty and misery. A lot of people would be surprised to learn that the impoverished peoples in a many those countries are a lot happier we expect. All-in-all they aren't much less happy than we are. Not saying that wealth isn't a good thing, but it doesn't seem to be…

I am not refuting your point ("money does not happiness make") but AFAIK, it is a known fact that people tend to a state of average happiness no matter what their condition is (e.g. if they lack the ability to walk or if they own private jets).

But there is a correlation between the youth/child death rate and the number of kids, and it can be generally agreed death impairs the pursuit of happiness.

(Though, quite likely child death implies many kids, not the other way around)

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#24

>>But, over the long term, it’s better to have a growing work force, not one that’s shrinking compared with the number of retirees. Why is this true? It seems to be taken as granted that this is true. I don't think that having a growing workforce that is barely earning a living is such a good thing. It just seems unsustainable to think that we can depend on a growing workforce indefinitely to support the growing numb…

> Why is this true?

Because of something called the "Dependency Ratio": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_ratio

The basic concept is that in order for there to be a high quality of life for most people in a society, the majority of them need to be capable of doing economically productive work. Otherwise you have a large number of dependents (juveniles and/or retirees) whose sustenance must somehow be garnered from a relatively small number of workers.

In China, for example, demographers talk about the "4:2:1 generation", which is the long-term effect of improving longevity combined with the one-child policy. This means that there could be four retired grandparents and two retired parents to every one working individual. Somehow, the social services for six people would have to be supported off the tax revenue from one. That's just not possible, and could very easily lead to a bad outcome for society as a whole.

(This isn't to discount the problems that come from overpopulation -- I'm just pointing out that it cuts both ways).

Too-rapid population growth can also lead to high dependency ratios -- in the form of children rather than the elderly -- and this also makes it difficult/impossible to support adequate social programmes. Historically, the best-performing economies tend to be those with very low dependency ratios, which is typically the result of a baby boom that is quickly followed by a baby bust. That produces a bulge of economically productive workers, the revenue from which can be spent on things like infrastructure and investment rather than social-support programmes which have less of an impact on GDP.

(Incidentally, this is a large part of the reason why China is going so bonkers with infrastructure development, building high-speed rail and ghost cities for which there is arguably no market. They're doing this because now is the only time they can. In 15 years, China as a whole will be substantially wealthier -- with enough people who are genuinely able to afford high-end condominiums and high-speed rail -- but at that point their youth bulge will be gone, scarcity of labour will drive up wages, most government revenue will have to go to healthcare and social services, and they'll have no ability build that kind of infrastructure. So they're building it while they can, well in advance of their actual need for it, which is actually pretty damn clever.)

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#25
post #22

>>But, over the long term, it’s better to have a growing work force, not one that’s shrinking compared with the number of retirees. Why is this true? It seems to be taken as granted that this is true. I don't think that having a growing workforce that is barely earning a living is such a good thing. It just seems unsustainable to think that we can depend on a growing workforce indefinitely to support the growing numb…

> I guess the reason this quote bothers me so much is that increasing the population in a lot of countries would mean bringing new babies to a life of poverty and misery. A lot of people would be surprised to learn that the impoverished peoples in a many those countries are a lot happier we expect. All-in-all they aren't much less happy than we are. Not saying that wealth isn't a good thing, but it doesn't seem to be…

[deleted]

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#26
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you seem surprised; this is a very long standing trend. It's also pretty obvious. You aren't the only one to value quality of life over quantity; in fact everyone else does too. The only problem is that if you're very poor you don't have a choice. Wherever and whenever the human race manages to claw its way out of poverty, we immediately stop having so many kids. It's not magic. That being said... 1)…

> What upcoming food shortage? Food production is largely a solved problem. We know how to sustainably produce large amounts of food from a given amount of arable land, and we have plenty of arable land to feed not just the current global population, but the projected maximum global population. It's true! We already have the ability to feed the largest population we'll ever have. True, Africa currently has food short…

And the environment might not recover eventually; it might go into runaway heating and boil off the atmosphere.

Runaway heating strikes me as highly unlikely. As temperature increases, blackbody radiation increases. Since solar input is very roughly constant, eventually a new equilibrium will be found where energy lost to space once again equals energy received from the sun.

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#27
This is silly.

> Usually, high religious observance and low income go along with high birthrates

No, usually what goes along with high birthrates is an agrarian peasant society that has to maintain high birthrates because 50%+ of children die before the age of 5, and if you want to have several kids of working age around to help in the fields, you need to aim for 8 or 12 newborns. Agrarian peasant societies happen to be poor and religious, but those are effects, not causes. Other contributing factors: women without independent income and therefore beholden to their husbands, no access to contraceptives, lack of basic literacy and education especially among girls.

Then what happens when places get improved sanitation and healthcare, pretty consistently everywhere we look at the data, is that there’s a demographic bubble when a generation has mothers survive all their pregnancies and all their 8-12 kids survive to adulthood. Then in the next generation or two, that falls to 4-6 kids on average because, hey, 50% aren’t dying anymore. Then by 2-3 generations after that, it’s down to 2-3 kids on average, or in some places even below replacement levels. Other contributing factors: migration to cities, access to contraceptives, and education especially of girls.

If you work in a factory or an office or a store, and live in a city, it’s just not convenient to start having kids at age 16 or to end up with 8 kids running around, even if you’re poor or religious. Already, 50% of the world population is urban, and within another generation that will be 60%.

> The speed of the change is breathtaking

The same demographic changes everywhere else in the world happened or are happening roughly at the same speed. There’s an incredible drop in fertility rate within 2-3 generations every time. For example, you see precisely the same pattern happening within the last few decades in rural Mexico, and if you look back several generations, the same pattern sweeping across Europe.

That Brooks thinks the changes in Oman &c. are surprising says more about Brooks than about the changes here.

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#28
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you seem surprised; this is a very long standing trend. It's also pretty obvious. You aren't the only one to value quality of life over quantity; in fact everyone else does too. The only problem is that if you're very poor you don't have a choice. Wherever and whenever the human race manages to claw its way out of poverty, we immediately stop having so many kids. It's not magic. That being said... 1)…

> What upcoming food shortage? Food production is largely a solved problem. We know how to sustainably produce large amounts of food from a given amount of arable land, and we have plenty of arable land to feed not just the current global population, but the projected maximum global population. It's true! We already have the ability to feed the largest population we'll ever have. True, Africa currently has food short…

"I don't think we are conquering global inequality. I think it's getting worse."

I'm sure you think that, but the numbers are clear, and not really under any dispute. Global inequality has been falling steadily and rapidly since 1980; it's the biggest reduction in absolute poverty the world has ever seen. You can interpret those numbers however you like, but those are the numbers.

"And the environment might not recover eventually; it might go into runaway heating and boil off the atmosphere."

Not according to the IPCC and the "scientific consensus". :)

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#29

>>But, over the long term, it’s better to have a growing work force, not one that’s shrinking compared with the number of retirees. Why is this true? It seems to be taken as granted that this is true. I don't think that having a growing workforce that is barely earning a living is such a good thing. It just seems unsustainable to think that we can depend on a growing workforce indefinitely to support the growing numb…

What surprises me is that they consider low fertility rate a problem. There are plenty of people from other countries that would be willing to work in Western countries with low fertility rate.

If fertility rates are below replacement level, then let them be and let immigrants from a third world country work in their place. There are plenty of people in this world already.

Re: The Fertility Implosion

#30

I've always believed in "Quality of Life", over "Quantity of Life". And reading stories like these gives me hope for the planet. I'm not sure we can handle 10 billion people living off of it simultaneously. Just look at all the problems we've got with only 7 billion and the upcoming food and resource shortages. Smaller populations living great full lives is so much better than massive populations living terribly. Eco…

I'm not sure why you seem surprised; this is a very long standing trend. It's also pretty obvious. You aren't the only one to value quality of life over quantity; in fact everyone else does too. The only problem is that if you're very poor you don't have a choice. Wherever and whenever the human race manages to claw its way out of poverty, we immediately stop having so many kids. It's not magic. That being said... 1)…

Your point 4 is exceedingly optimistic. The environment won't "recover". It will certainly reach a stable equilibrium, but that equilibrium may well be something we, as a species, won't particularly like or thrive in.

While we're talking arable land, we need to consider that the majority of the land that could be deployed as farmland is home to a whole host of ecosystem services and bio-resources that, if destroyed, won't be coming back. Temperatures can stabilize, pollution can go down, but if we can't stave off habitat loss and destruction, we'll be a lot worse off than today. More people means they all need somewhere to live, somewhere to grow their food, and somewhere to put their waste. That space is all at the expense of organisms we need. We can't just shrug our shoulders and assume everything will bounce back eventually.

As for the fertility implosion itself - it needs to happen, sooner or later. Those 20-year olds in the Middle East and the babies being born today? Yeah, they'll get old, too. Brooks' view on demographics is a pyramid scheme, we need to figure it out, and I'd sooner have it happen now while we still have a relative diversity of species and environments left.

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