Live data from Hacker News

Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

aaronhertzmann.com

91–100 of 174 posts

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#91
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> turtles all the way down was literal Was it? What evidence do you have for that? If anything it sounds like the kind of verbal slapdown someone in authority would subject someone trying to be a smart alec. It is short. Easy to understand. And closes the kind of questioning. I would be very surprised if someone have considered it the literal truth, but of course have seen stranger things. > heavenly clockwork and co…

> I seriously think that it is within the realm of possibilities that this universe we live in (including us) is a literal simulation. Notice how you dropped the “computer” part. Without that qualifier, the “universe is a simulation” hypothesis goes back at least to Descartes and his evil demon [1]. That’s the GP’s point. The “demon,” “clockwork,” and “computer” are just metaphors to help illustrate the point. Hundre…

> now it’s computers - the simulation part is the same.

I don't think so. I do understand this lineage of thought, and I agree with you that they are somewhat similar. But I must insist in saying that what I'm talking about is different.

The trickster demon metaphor talks about a being (you) whose senses are replaced by the demon. But that means there is a you outside of the demon/computer simulation.

I believe if this universe is a simulation, then I am part of that simulation. My mind is not an external observer hooked up to the simulation, but just matter simulated by the simulation according to the rules of the simulation. The thing Descartes was talking about is a Matrix situation. (Or rather to say the creators of Matrix were paraphrasing Descartes) Neo thinks he is living his life, but in truth his body is laying in a pod in the goo. I don't believe in that. I don't think that is likely true. If this is a simulation then me (and you, and this computer, and all of the people, and the butterflies and the stars) are in the simulation. And not the way how Neo is in there, but the way a cubic meter of minecraft sand is inside a minecraft world. Inside the minecraft world it is a cubic meter of sand, outside of it is just a few bytes in the memory of some program.

Let me illustrate what I mean when I say that I don't speak about the universe being a computer simulation as a metaphor. Imagine that it is a simulation. What does this computer simulation have to do? Well, it seems that there are particles, and there are forces between them (gravity, electric, weak/strong nuclear force) In every iteration of this simulation it would seem that you need to calculate which particles are close to others so you can update the forces on them, so you can calculate their new state.

To do this you need to inspect the distance between every two particle. That scales with ordo N^2 with the number of particles N. If the universe is a computer simulation it probably runs on a computer of immense power. But even then N^2 scaling is not good news in a hot path. Funny thing is that if the universe you want to simulate is relatively sparse (as is ours), and has an absolute speed limit (as ours seems to have), then you can shard your workload into parallel processes. And then you can run the separate shards relatively independently, and you only need to pass information from one shard to an other periodically.

Now if our universe is a simulation, and it is sharded this way, then you would expect anomalies to crop up on the shard boundaries. Where the simulated mater is moved from one executor "node" to an other. We could construct small spacecraft and send them far away (perhaps other solar systems?). We would furnish these small automated spacecraft with sensitive experiments. Microscopic versions of a Newton's cradle, or some sort of subatomic oscillator, or a very precisely measured interferometric experiment. And the craft would autonomously check constantly that the laws of physics are unchanged, and work without glitches.

If we don't see any glitches, then we shrug. Either we don't live in a computer simulation, or the computer simulation is not sharded this way, or the edge cases are very well handled, or the instruments were not sensitive enough, or the shards are even bigger (perhaps we should have sent the same experiments to a different galaxy?) If we see glitching, then we should try to map out exactly where they happen, and how they happen, and that would be very interesting. And if we see glitching of this kind that would increase my confidence in us living in a computer simulation.

Does this make sense? You cannot design an experiment to test a metaphor. It doesn't even make sense. But I think of this as a possible literal truth, in which case you can formulate hypothesises based on it and you can check those with experiments.

> so it’s safe to say their believers took them a bit more literally

I believe you. Did anyone ever propose to solve a famine by sending a hunting party to cut a chunk of the turtle's flesh? Or to send gatherer's to collect the dung of the turtle to fertilise the land? Or to send holly people to the edge of the world, to peer down at the turtle to predict earthquakes? If the turtles are meant to be literal turtles these are all straightforward consequences. If nobody ever proposed anything like these, then perhaps the turtles were more of a metaphor?

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#92
I am not a computer vision specialist, but I wanted to add an anecdote from years of parenting.

One thing that amazed me about babies was how early they understand line drawings. Long before a baby can talk, it knows what a dog is (and can imitate a dog sound), and can also identify a dog in a photo, in a realistic drawing, and in a very simple line drawing.

It seems so easy, but in reality those things all look so very, very different. And after 6ish months, babies have mastered that recognition.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#93

Very frustrating article to read. The article is setting up a straw man and attacking it. He is acting like everyone else thinks: 1) edges are the only important features in images and 2) line drawings can only represent edges. Who are these brainless absolutists that he is attacking? Then he's acting like he is the only one with other bright ideas that nobody will listen to. I think it is obvious to anyone who think…

The author comes across as ignorant at best, but then to present his own work as the Realism Hypothesis of Hertzmann, it leans more towards arrogance.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#94
Eh. To me it looks like the authors extends "lines-as-edges" explanation of why we can understand line drawings to the claim that the visual cortex works almost only on edge detection, which is obviously bunk and so easily refuted by him. Then later he shows a shillouette image we can understand even though the edges themselves are not understandable, and somehow this is supposed to be evidence against lines as edges. No, it just means that we have other methods of understanding images: shillouette, color, texture etc.

In my opinion these kinds of arguments trying to decompose the brains functioning into a couple of distinct techniques become quite obviously pointless once you look at the activation patterns of neural networks. Just looking at the features that neurons detect throughout the different layers of an inage classifying neural network tells you more than these kinds of papers ever will.

You see that edges, shillouettes, circles, circles with holes, textures, shinyness patterns, grid patterns etc. up to complex patterns and then real things like heads or arms are detected.

There is some manifold of all the images a being is somehow likely to see on this world and it has a complicated structure. You can extract the major features of the geomatry of this manifold and you come across the usual patterns. At simple complexity you find things like edges and textures, at higher complexity things like eyes or appendages. You try to find these features in an image and hope one of them works well. Maybe edges work, maybe shillouettes work or maybe both or neither.

Look I know ANNs and NNs are quite different, but the experimental evidence with NNs shows that what I described above, a mix of feature detectors that just approximate the structures of the data to deeper and deeper detail and are just all somehow applied to see what works, is much more plausible than some constructed algorithm a neuroscientist or philosopher would write down.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#95
post #17

> Problem #1: What about all the other features? Is this necessarily a problem in the argument? If we consider e.g. color, and construct a blurry image that has a color distribution very similar to a real face, but doesn't fire the edge detection in the same way, we can still recognize it as a face. This could just mean that a sufficiently close match to other examples of the same class on any one of the strong "dime…

Yes that stuck out to me as well. The author seems to be setting up a straw man, as if people are arguing that the brain can't distinguish between a line drawing and the real thing (or a line drawing and a photograph).

The other information isn't necessarily discarded. It's just used to identify that this is a line drawing and not the real thing. It's still remarkable that just the lines themselves (I make no claim as to whether it really is edge detection or something else) are still enough information to be able to identify the representation, but it doesn't mean the brain is discarding the other information.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#96
post #93

Very frustrating article to read. The article is setting up a straw man and attacking it. He is acting like everyone else thinks: 1) edges are the only important features in images and 2) line drawings can only represent edges. Who are these brainless absolutists that he is attacking? Then he's acting like he is the only one with other bright ideas that nobody will listen to. I think it is obvious to anyone who think…

The author comes across as ignorant at best, but then to present his own work as the Realism Hypothesis of Hertzmann, it leans more towards arrogance.

There is a subset of the tech bro that believes everything can be reduced to a problem with clearly defined taxonomy and as such every problem can be solved by an engineer with no subject knowledge. This article very much reads like one of those people wrote it.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#97
post #94

Eh. To me it looks like the authors extends "lines-as-edges" explanation of why we can understand line drawings to the claim that the visual cortex works almost only on edge detection, which is obviously bunk and so easily refuted by him. Then later he shows a shillouette image we can understand even though the edges themselves are not understandable, and somehow this is supposed to be evidence against lines as edges…

> Look I know ANNs and NNs are quite different, but the experimental evidence with NNs shows that what I described above, a mix of feature detectors that just approximate the structures of the data to deeper and deeper detail and are just all somehow applied to see what works, is much more plausible than some constructed algorithm a neuroscientist or philosopher would write down.

Precisely. Deep CNNs were directly inspired by studying the structure and behavior of visual cortical tissue.

The algorithm is just recursive feature detection, where the visual elements are transformed into abstractions, based on both sensory input and projected expectations. If anything, that's the real exciting part of the visual system, why do illusions occur, how does expectation affect perception, etc. Not "how do line drawings evoke similar concepts to images". That's just bypassing the first few layers of filters. Basic ass tiny MNIST nets can do this.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#98
post #3

As someone (probably like many here) who graduated from a university which taught computer vision and peripheral neuroscience courses, with such titles as "Computational Neuroscience of Vision", I always felt that trying to understand the human brain as a kind of algorithm was a bit of an artefact of computer scientists as they approach biology. The truth is the visual cortex is vast, and not sufficient to explain th…

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

When my legs give out from below me, I don’t shout “loss of hydraulic pressure!” like some kind of arthropod.

Yet we’re obsessed with framing ourselves as chains of matmul.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

I think it is more that as technology grows it spreads its terms and contexts to the point of entering pop culture. I'm not sure if the populous uses terms simply becuase they have heard them before in the same context or due to an understanding. I have to point out that P.G. Wodehouse is often used as an example of this style in recent "literature". I can't even figure out the words to describe the sources of his te…

This really has piqued my interest. Would you care to share an example or two, please?

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#100
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author comes across as ignorant at best, but then to present his own work as the Realism Hypothesis of Hertzmann, it leans more towards arrogance.

There is a subset of the tech bro that believes everything can be reduced to a problem with clearly defined taxonomy and as such every problem can be solved by an engineer with no subject knowledge. This article very much reads like one of those people wrote it.

Yeah, I have been guilty of that myself sometimes. This XKCD is a reminder to me: https://xkcd.com/793/
Post reply on HN