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Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

aaronhertzmann.com

21–30 of 174 posts

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#21
post #3

As someone (probably like many here) who graduated from a university which taught computer vision and peripheral neuroscience courses, with such titles as "Computational Neuroscience of Vision", I always felt that trying to understand the human brain as a kind of algorithm was a bit of an artefact of computer scientists as they approach biology. The truth is the visual cortex is vast, and not sufficient to explain th…

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

I think in the case of “to lose one’s temper”, there isn’t an obvious match between the technology of the day and the early medical theory of four humours, not of metal-working.

Origin of Temper, New Oxford American Dictionary:

Old English temprian 'bring something into the required condition by mixing it with something else', from Latin temperare 'mingle, restrain'. Sense development was probably influenced by Old French temper 'to temper, moderate'.

The noun originally denoted a proportionate mixture of elements or qualities, also the combination of the four bodily humours, believed in medieval times to be the basis of temperament, hence temper (sense 1 of the noun) (late Middle English). Compare with temperament.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#22
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also the universe itself is often seen through the lens of contemporary technology. Are we living on an island that floats on a giant turtle’s back? Or are the heavens like giant clockworks? Or maybe it’s all a computer simulation? These cosmological speculations are separated by thousands of years, but they are all simply a reflection of what the person finds most awe-inspiring in their everyday life.

The difference is turtles all the way down was literal, but heavenly clockwork and computer program perspectives are clear metaphors.

Psh - everyone knows it's a flat disc balanced on the backs of four elephants which in turn stand on the back of a giant turtle.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#23
post #3

As someone (probably like many here) who graduated from a university which taught computer vision and peripheral neuroscience courses, with such titles as "Computational Neuroscience of Vision", I always felt that trying to understand the human brain as a kind of algorithm was a bit of an artefact of computer scientists as they approach biology. The truth is the visual cortex is vast, and not sufficient to explain th…

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

> to lose one’s temper

Huh, never thought about that one before.

Linguistic stuff like this is fun to find; these days I mostly spot it via learning German as a second language, so the artifice in artificial intelligence becomes “Künstliches Intelligenz” where “Kunst” is artist and “Kunststoff” is plastic, and in Middle Low German “kunst” is knowledge and ability.

> coined

Deliberate choice to exemplify your point, or accidental because it’s almost impossible to avoid examples like this in modern English?

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#24
post #18

> A classic answer to this question is what I will call the Lines-As-Edges hypothesis. It says that drawings simulate natural images because line features activate edge receptors in the human visual system. Why does the explanation need to go to that direction? Line drawings have a liking to the thing being depicted. They're a crude representation of it (compared to a photograph or a photo-realistic oil painting) but…

People are so used to seeing images that it's impossible to recognize that they're an _illusion_. If you see a drawing of an apple, it is colored pigment on a page, it's not an apple, but it's _impossible_ to look at it and not see an apple.

_Why_ do we recognize it as an apple? It's certainly not an exact duplicate of the light rays that would enter your eye from a real apple. How different can it be from an apple and still be recognizable? What exactly is the mechanism by which it triggers the recognition?

Calling an image a "representation" or saying that it "has a liking" to the real thing is sort of begging the question. The question to be answered is: "In what way is it a representation? And how does it have a liking to the thing represented"?

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#25
I don't understand the essay at all, perhaps because I'm not a domain expert. Edges are clearly a very strong signal in the visual system -- as the article points out, edge detection is one of the first things that happens in the visual pathway from the eyes. However, edges are clearly not the only signal, as the article demonstrates with cross-hatching, colour, and so on (and is also obvious to presumably all sighted humans).

If you remove edges as a signal -- say, by taking the coloured apple in the article, removing the lines, and blurring the colours around the silhouette -- you'd probably still recognise an apple, but not as quickly. For the same reason, if you defocus your eyes (or take off your glasses -- the popularity of these is a strong indicator that contour matters), you'll have more difficulty navigating, even though many signals (colour, shade, depth) are still present. Clearly edges are important, but are not the only thing we're working with.

Optical illusions also don't invalidate the hypothesis, because they almost by definition rarely occur in nature. Similarly, objects in extreme shadow don't invalidate it either, because, e.g., we are quite capable of recognising half a lion as a lion.

I think possibly there's a difference in interpretation here. The claim the author has an issue with is (his phrasing): "the lines in a line drawing are drawn at natural image edges, where an edge receptor would fire. These lines activate the same edge receptor cells that the natural image would. Hence, the line drawing produces a cortical response that is very similar to that of some natural image, and thus you perceive the drawing and the photograph in roughly the same way."

But the paper the author links to doesn't say that. It says "The likely explanation is that lines trigger a neural response that has evolved to deal with natural scenes." It's not claiming that line drawings and photographs are perceived in "roughly the same way", only that we evolved to recognise outlines and line drawings are outlines or at least contain outlines.

So problem 1 (what about all the other features), problem 3 (what is the benefit), problem 4 (visual art isn't just line drawings), and problem 5 (edge detection is not a line drawing algorithm) don't seem to really address the hypothesis.

That just leaves problem 2, "we can't see internal representations". I'm not sure what the statement is here. The author writes "The idea is that we have neurons that activate for object contours and similar, and that line drawings directly activate these neurons. Lines-As-Edges is a special case of this hypothesis. I don’t understand this claim at all." But that claim, as a hypothesis, seems very reasonable? The author seems to be saying that you can't bypass all the neuronal machinery to get directly to the contour-recognising neurons. But that's not true if all you're bypassing is the stuff to isolate the feature of interest (edges, in this case).

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

> to lose one’s temper Huh, never thought about that one before. Linguistic stuff like this is fun to find; these days I mostly spot it via learning German as a second language, so the artifice in artificial intelligence becomes “Künstliches Intelligenz” where “Kunst” is artist and “Kunststoff” is plastic, and in Middle Low German “kunst” is knowledge and ability. > coined Deliberate choice to exemplify your point, o…

[dead]

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah, someone who paid attention in lecture! (incidentally; there’s a fairly deep literature of historians of science that have carefully documented that we describe ourselves as analogous to the most sophisticated technology of the day: see “to lose one’s temper”, “to blow a gasket”, “i got my wires crossed”, “sorry, cache miss”, … as metaphors and idioms of mental state through the centuries that reflect the cool tec…

And also the universe itself is often seen through the lens of contemporary technology. Are we living on an island that floats on a giant turtle’s back? Or are the heavens like giant clockworks? Or maybe it’s all a computer simulation? These cosmological speculations are separated by thousands of years, but they are all simply a reflection of what the person finds most awe-inspiring in their everyday life.

Humans are the universe. It’s not surprising the universe uses available metaphors to explain to itself why it might exist.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also the universe itself is often seen through the lens of contemporary technology. Are we living on an island that floats on a giant turtle’s back? Or are the heavens like giant clockworks? Or maybe it’s all a computer simulation? These cosmological speculations are separated by thousands of years, but they are all simply a reflection of what the person finds most awe-inspiring in their everyday life.

The difference is turtles all the way down was literal, but heavenly clockwork and computer program perspectives are clear metaphors.

Tell that to the people who subscribe to the simulation hypothesis.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#29

This is fascinating! I remember reading that most optical illusions don't work on people raised in remote tribes in the Amazon, as their visual perception has been 'fine-tuned' for jungle contours, instead of the straight lines in the west. Is it possible that we _learn_ how to perceive line drawings in our early years?

I think so and this is true about music as well as other arts.

Re: Edge detection doesn’t explain line drawing

#30
post #9

Ten years or so ago I was working on a video chip that had an upscaler feature. While prototyping and simulating it, we first started by applying a mathematically-correct (i.e. information preserving) FIR filter to do the upscale. Then we compared the result with other solutions and found that ours looked worse. We asked our colleagues to blind-test it and they all picked third-party-scaled images over ours. At first…

Works in games too. Adaptive contrast will increase noise, but after a while games without it will look blurry and undefined.
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