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Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

iamvishnu.com

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Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#171

Post by Beldin »

fishtoaster wrote: post #43

I hate those too. On the other hand, I've been adjacent to the decision to add them before. You're under a lot of pressure to increase conversion in your onboarding funnel, so you test out moving your email capture up a bit in your conversion flow (ie to before you deliver results) and it works! Conversion increases throughout the funnel! So you keep it. Dark patterns like this persist because they measurably work. S…

Sure, I absolutely believe that if you create a "ransom" situation, some percentage of those extorted will pay the ransom where otherwise they would not gift you the ransom. That does not imply it's good for your business.

Besides putting the business in a negative light for the new convert, I imagine a subset of those would feel more entitled than before. I probably would - if I had to give you something to convert my picture "for free", I would definitely feel entitled to good results. I would be far more likely to complain/badger customer assistance in case of insufficient (for my needs) results.

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#172

Post by MathMonkeyMan »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #159

In the example given in the article, if the website had generated 3 blog post ideas and then 7 more that were blurred and required an email sign-up, that would have been a happy medium.

Or generate three and then blur out lorem ipsum, and never point out until the user has paid that you only ever generate three ideas (or maybe just one).

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#173

Post by MathMonkeyMan »

cellis wrote: post #62
lowbloodsugar wrote: post #31

Also: TV companies, please don't show me advertisements instead of the TV show I want to watch. Car dealers, please tell me about all the expensive feeds and add-ons before I agree to buy the car. Phone companies, gyms, fucking everyone, please tell me about the $50, $150 "sign up fee" in addition to the $X a month cost. etc. I mean, good luck guy. You are a human on a planet run by humans with all the power imbalanc…

Not sure why you're being downvoted. It's completely true, everyone wants a reality that caters to them. The harsh reality of online business is that most consumers won't give a product the time of day before trying it for free unless it either comes highly recommended or they are compelled to use it by a higher power. So tactics such as these pay off better than what? the OP is suggesting.

It comes down to ethics. If you need dark patterns to stay in business, then I'd prefer you weren't in business.

Now what if it were _my_ business...

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#174

Post by ihateolives »

kerkeslager wrote: post #138
miki123211 wrote: post #64

I don't really understand who this post is addressed to. The people that decide to do this just want more money. they won't stop because of some rant by a random stranger on the internet. The programmers who implement this have to do what their boss tells them to, or change jobs, and this isn't something worth changing jobs over. Everybody else already knows that it's a thing, knows why it happens and can't do anythi…

> The programmers who implement this have to do what their boss tells them to, or change jobs, and this isn't something worth changing jobs over. I disagree. I've been very intentional about the places I work and have managed to build a successful career while never implementing a dark pattern. "I was just following orders" is not an excuse. Take responsibility for your actions.

Great that it has worked for you. Life is not black and white though. It's easy to have a spine when you have fuck you money in the bank, but not so easy when you have family to feed. Would you starve you kids on principle just because you want to "take responsibility" at work?

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#175

Post by archerx »

bunga-bunga wrote: post #93

Dear user, No. Unfortunately these patterns work great so they will never stop. As more dark patterns are “discovered”, we’ll see the web becoming more of a dump. You see it every day, successful websites and socials become successful thanks to these pattern, not in spite of them.

There are people out there who do whatever pop ups tell them to do. I was in a meeting once and we need to check something on a site the other person just clicked yes on the cookie banner without reading. I told him “You should click no on those” and he replied “I know, every keeps telling me that but I just click yes anyway”. I just blankly stared at him for a couple of seconds and returned the focus to the meeting.

This experience reminds me the “normies” use the internet very very differently than techy people and it explains a lot of the weird quirks on the web.

We are at the mercy of the lowest common denominator which happens to be a majority

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#176

Post by aziaziazi »

ihateolives wrote: post #174
kerkeslager wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The programmers who implement this have to do what their boss tells them to, or change jobs, and this isn't something worth changing jobs over. I disagree. I've been very intentional about the places I work and have managed to build a successful career while never implementing a dark pattern. "I was just following orders" is not an excuse. Take responsibility for your actions.

Great that it has worked for you. Life is not black and white though. It's easy to have a spine when you have fuck you money in the bank, but not so easy when you have family to feed. Would you starve you kids on principle just because you want to "take responsibility" at work?

Isn’t starving your kids a bit “black and white” ? I reckon you keep on working for that company for a while so you can feed your family. When they have eaten, look for a job that makes you proud.

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#177

Post by vishnuharidas »

s-xyz wrote: post #22

I understand the point; ideally you want to have some free content before you actually need to sign up. However, when integrating a paid solution like OpenAI for example, the tricky part is to limit the number of free requests to prevent going bankrupt by one user. I can imagine that this would be a potential reason to ask for a sign up.

It's not about being free or paid, but it's all about being honest to the users.I don't have a problem to sign up or pay for the service. But I need to know before I start using it.

It's like I install a brand new text editor software, spent some time to write a story, and when click on the "save" option, it asking for the payment - that's dishonest and shows that there can be more such dishonest behaviors in the future. But if the same software asked me for a payment upfront, that's totally understandable. Or, if it said upfront that "this is a limited demo, you can save documents up to 150 words, and if you have to save larger documents, you need to pay", that's being very straightforward to the users.

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#178

Post by jen729w »

stubish wrote: post #153
fishtoaster wrote: post #43

I hate those too. On the other hand, I've been adjacent to the decision to add them before. You're under a lot of pressure to increase conversion in your onboarding funnel, so you test out moving your email capture up a bit in your conversion flow (ie to before you deliver results) and it works! Conversion increases throughout the funnel! So you keep it. Dark patterns like this persist because they measurably work. S…

> You're under a lot of pressure to increase conversion in your onboarding funnel, so you test out moving your email capture up a bit in your conversion flow (ie to before you deliver results) and it works! Conversion increases throughout the funnel! So you keep it. I think this is the fundamental problem. Too many people trying to increase conversion in their onboarding funnels, crowding out people who want to put i…

> other than farming people for money

Which is a beautiful way to live life.

Until you quit your job and build some indie thing and try to make money and fuck, that’s difficult.

And you’re broke. And you worked really hard on this thing. Turns out ‘farming people for money’ = ‘paying rent’.

And you realise, shit man, if I make it a bit worse according to my ethics and taste, I’ll actually make money. And I won’t have to go and take some other job.

And I’ll be sad that this is how humans work, but it is how humans work, and am I going to change that or just tag along for the ride?

Re: Dear websites, stop asking for ransom sign-ups

#179

Post by slig »

pacifika wrote: post #169
tamimio wrote: post #49

Yesterday I was using a website to generate a logo (not mentioning them they don’t deserve any publicity), and after entering the details, refining what to emphasize on, description, my email and logo requirements, they generated some and refused to show it unless I pay, not just signing up.. literal scumbags, why would I pay before even seeing the logo ffs, what if I didn’t like it? How about all the time and detail…

Imagine buying an ikea cabinet for cheap and after assembling 90% they want a large sum for the missing bits.

Imagine getting bits and pieces of a cabinet and having to pay before leaving the store.
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