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Splitting the Web

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Re: Splitting the Web

#141

Post by flir »

GMoromisato wrote: post #99
flir wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything beyond the main page is a 404. I just wanted a technical description of how it works.

Apologies--still working on everything (which is why I didn't post the URL). But here's a technical description: 1. Imagine we build a platform abstraction layer on top of the typical nodes of a datacenter: web servers, database storage, etc. 2. We also create a remoted UI layer on the platform that renders on browser clients as HTML/JavaScript. Think of it like X Windows but higher-level and rendered on a browser. 3…

Many thanks. I've bookmarked and I'll be coming back now and again.

Re: Splitting the Web

#142

Post by MayeulC »

Kovah wrote: post #31
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

> It feels like everyone is now choosing its side. You can’t stay in the middle anymore. You are either dedicating all your CPU cycles to run JavaScript tracking you or walking away from the big monopolies. You are either being paid to build huge advertising billboards on top of yet another framework or you are handcrafting HTML. Is that happening? I feel like there's a ton of middle ground, and it's only ever expand…

I thought that there must be a middle ground after reading that part, too. But we, the people who know, run and support that cozy web, are actually a minority compared to the mass of internet users. It's not a good comparison, but my family and friends know absolutely nothing about all the things that make up the cozy web. Dozens of people and literally nobody knows what RSS, Mastodon or blogs are. When asked about p…

The "cosy web" is supposed to be your family and friends instant messengers (chat rooms). Shared spreadsheets, that sort of "private" spaces on the web.

That forum or chatroom you are participating in for your niche hobby. Etc. It's differently shaped for everybody, and the name isn't ubiquitous. I think you may be confusing it with the fediverse?

Re: Splitting the Web

#143

Post by theonlybutlet »

skydhash wrote: post #47
8chanAnon wrote: post #2

From the article: But, increasingly, I feel less and less like an outsider. It’s not me. It’s people living for and by advertising who are the outsiders. They are the one destroying everything they touch, including the planet. They are the sick psychos and I don’t want them in my life anymore. My thoughts exactly. Like the author, I don't have patience for glossy websites anymore. If a site needs third-party JS to be…

I’m moving to Firefox as my main browser, and the amount of sites that break because of me blocking JavaScript (with ublock) is staggering. I can understand SPA being JS only, but simple blogs and other content sites, no.

Been doing this for a few months too.

But recently installed duckduckgo on my android phone and turned on their app tracking protection. The unnecessary requests made by apps I haven't used in months is jaw dropping.

Re: Splitting the Web

#144

Post by theonlybutlet »

Lio wrote: post #135
Kovah wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that there must be a middle ground after reading that part, too. But we, the people who know, run and support that cozy web, are actually a minority compared to the mass of internet users. It's not a good comparison, but my family and friends know absolutely nothing about all the things that make up the cozy web. Dozens of people and literally nobody knows what RSS, Mastodon or blogs are. When asked about p…

What really bugs me about all the Google/Facebook/Twitter anti-ad-blocker stuff is that if only a tiny minority of us use them why are they putting so much effort into to stopping us? From Facebook breaking copy/paste so you can’t email calendar events to people not on the platform to Twitter closing APIs to third party clients to Google attempting to stop ad blockers. It’s all just to make life worse for a tiny grou…

I think you'd be surprised.

I know of a large company that uses one.

A cursory google (I haven't verified it) "42.7% of internet users worldwide (16-64 years old) use ad blocking tools at least once a month. 27% of American internet users block ads. AdBlock, a popular blocking extension, is reported to have more than 65 million users."

Re: Splitting the Web

#145

Post by palata »

skybrian wrote: post #94
palata wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the article describes a feeling which is shared by many (me included). It is interesting (again, at least for me) to see that others feel the same way. > I don’t think it’s a good idea to stop using a website I like due to generic concerns like this. I think that the idea is not to philosophically decide to stop using some websites. It is rather that some of those websites have become unbearable, and the author…

The author writes about actively blocking things and that's not something that just happens, it's something they chose to do: > Yep, I’m probably blocking some important third-party JavaScript. No, I don’t care. Occasionally I will try to help someone with a lot of browser extensions installed who is confused about why some website doesn't work and does care, and the first thing I will recommend is creating a fresh p…

Right, yeah I see your point. I am closer to the author in that sense: I don't trust most browser extensions and I try to have as few as possible, but I still have uBlock origin. Maybe in the past I used to be fine with all the ads anywhere, but after years with an adblocker, the Web without it is unbearable for me.

I recently decided to try "I don't care about cookies" (Firefox extension), and it feels really good to not have to spend 2min trying to find the hidden "reject all" button on all those popups :-).

Re: Splitting the Web

#146

Post by palata »

Lio wrote: post #137
lolinder wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's common to assume around here that most people care about snappy UIs and corporations are just dumb and give in to designers who need to justify their paycheck, but... what if that isn't true? What if the people who care about load times in apps like Slack are a tiny minority, and the majority actually likes the "glossy, useless UI stuff"? It's easy for a native computer user who grew up with (or before) Windows…

We have that assumption because we’ve worked first hand with managers, developers and designers that don’t care about load times and “snappiness”. We know from experience, a lot of work gets signed off as soon as they can put a tick in the box to say it’s done and not when it’s actually done well! ;)

Exactly this. Seeing from the inside how products are being built, I strongly doubt that it is ever proven that users want the bulky, shiny, slow stuff.

> but given that the glossy products constantly beat out the minimalist ones

Another theory would be that the glossy products have a much better marketing than the minimalist ones. Nowadays, people just don't see you if you don't have a heavy marketing. IMO it has nothing to do with the quality of the product.

> What if the people who care about load times in apps like Slack are a tiny minority

Haven't you ever heard of somebody (not tech-savvy) buying a new smartphone because their current one is "too slow"? I have. It just feel like those people accepted that "the phone is too old, so it is now slow" (just like they have been taught to accept that most software is buggy). Where I don't. The phone is slow because the programs it runs are (unnecessarily, IMO) bulky. And most software is full of bugs, which makes it pretty bad.

Re: Splitting the Web

#147

Post by palata »

sophacles wrote: post #109
palata wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm from your description, you sound very close to the author of that article. What makes you think they are extreme and you are not? Genuinely interested.

Not the person you asked, but framing it as "us vs them" and talking about having to choose a side... it's an extremist framing.

> it's an extremist framing.

I see it as expressing a feeling. "It feels like it's us vs them".

I don't know, I understand "extremist" as a pretty serious criticism ("I don't want to listen to that guy, he is an extremist"). But the author doesn't call for invading the Capitol, he is merely saying that he doesn't like how the commercial Web evolved.

Maybe it's more of a "purist" framing?

Re: Splitting the Web

#148

Post by mrweasel »

bruce511 wrote: post #4

I get where the author is coming from, but I feel like his conclusion is reductionist. Yes, on the one extreme you have Facebook, and the other extreme is say Mastodon, but there's also a huge middle way which is well populated. This week I've browsed hacker news, Wikipedia, done some research for an upcoming trip, kept up with OpenSSL and Jquery (yeah, that's still around, and still useful.) I bought some waterproof…

> I bought some waterproofing (direct from the manufacturer), looked up nearby steel manufacturers, and looked up the phone number of my electrician (on his site).

Perhaps a little side tracked here, but the internet has basically become useless for DIY projects lately. We're renovating and needed some advise on which kind of paint to use for a particular project and we have given up on using the internet for advise. SEO, bad translations and straight-up scams have prevent us from finding even the most basic information. Instead we just go to the paint store and ask there. They also know exactly what kind of paint, wallpaper and tools are available and don't recommend stuff that's can only be shipped from the US or China. So congratulation, we broke the internet and we now back at consulting local experts in physical stores.... Brilliant.

Re: Splitting the Web

#149

Post by cesaref »

I don't think this is quite right. What I believe is going on is that different generations have different battles they are fighting, different tech that they are comfortable with. How i'm reading it is the author is fighting against change, and the tipping point they are seeing is the realisation that the battle is lost - they have to either choose to adopt the new stuff, or close the door to it.

Each generation grows up with stuff and sticks with it in the face of 'better' or 'more modern' alternatives. We see this with adoption of different social media platforms where there is a clear age difference between different platforms. My generation (i'm in my 50s) are big facebook users, my son (in his 20s) doesn't use facebook, but uses tiktok & discord. I'm pretty sure in 20 years time the next generation will be using something different and there will be an aging tiktok demographic too.

All this means is that if you are developing a new competing platform in what appears to be a closed space, there is always room for you, if you target the next generation and their expectations.

Re: Splitting the Web

#150

Post by prmoustache »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #80
Swizec wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I won't put up with 15mb downloads just to read some content Meanwhile my normie friends are sending me TikTok videos of people reading screenshots of Reddit comments posted to Instagram. Regular users absolutely do not care about any of this .

That's a them problem. 30 years ago we knew they'd be trouble if they ever adopted the web en masse and they (and the folks that prey on them) have proven that prediction right at every turn.

That is the problem of everyone in fact.

Once it is be accepted that "normal peoples" need to ingest advertising ad nauseam and each of their movement is being tracked, people who actually value their privacy and a content web become the abnormal peoples.

The author mention the dark web, this is exactly what is happening. If you value your privacy you are now assimilated to criminality and terrorism.

See https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/06/05/criminalization-o...

“All members contacted adopted a clandestine behaviour, with increased security of means of communication (encrypted applications, Tails operating system, TOR protocol enabling anonymous browsing on the Internet and public wifi)”.

“All members of this group were particularly suspicious, only communicating with each other using encrypted applications, in particular Signal, and encrypting their computers and devices […].

"The elements of the investigation that have been communicated to us are staggering. Here are just some of the practices that are being misused as evidence of terrorist behavior6:

– the use of applications such as Signal, WhatsApp, Wire, Silence or ProtonMail to encrypt communications ;

– using Internet privacy tools such as VPN, Tor or Tails7 ;

– protecting ourselves against the exploitation of our personal data by GAFAM via services such as /e/OS, LineageOS, F-Droid ;

– encrypting digital media;

– organizing and participating in digital hygiene training sessions;

– simple possession of technical documentation."

Now using encryption and secure messaging with anything but whatsapp and imessage marks you as a potential terrorist, later it will be ad blockers, disabled javascript, not using chrome's WEI and using the smol net/web.

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