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I'm betting on HTML

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Re: I'm betting on HTML

#111

Post by jraph »

mmahemoff wrote: post #64
p-e-w wrote: post #26

HTML is the solution to walled-garden lock-in? What? Those walled gardens already use HTML, including some of the semantic elements mentioned (plus ARIA semantic attributes, which are much more sophisticated). > ChatGPT-like interfaces are likely the future of human data access. And the whole point of artificial intelligence systems is that they don't require specialized "machine-readable" annotations in order to pro…

Valid point. Ironically the main benefit of semantic markup is now an abstraction to help the human developers effect styling and control.

Isn't the main benefit of semantic markup still accessibility?

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#112

Post by delusional »

wruza wrote: post #95
p-e-w wrote: post #26

HTML is the solution to walled-garden lock-in? What? Those walled gardens already use HTML, including some of the semantic elements mentioned (plus ARIA semantic attributes, which are much more sophisticated). > ChatGPT-like interfaces are likely the future of human data access. And the whole point of artificial intelligence systems is that they don't require specialized "machine-readable" annotations in order to pro…

ChatGPT (and its future offspring) can navigate regular websites the same way humans do It seems to be at least a not-yet-true claim, but let’s ignore that for now. It’s interesting if LLMs actually could do this. As I understand it, LLMs are trained on texts and source code among other things. But lacking… let’s name it a reasoning apparatus, can they really look at a DOM tree and tell what it is/does? It’s not a te…

> “LLMs will look at any .exe and be able to integrate with it immediately”.

The LLM will look at any .exe and determine if it halts.

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#113

Post by xvilka »

p-e-w wrote: post #31
anyfactor wrote: post #8

Tangent. > I wrote this post and then GPT-4 fixed my grammer and spelling I wrote an Autohotkey + Go script that I constantly use for fixing grammar using ChatGPT's API. You can select the text, press F8, wait a bit, and your input will be replaced by correctly grammatical text. The only catch is that it "fixes" the tone and makes it professional, which is kinda annoying. Feel free to try it out: https://github.com/a…

Alternatively, you could set up LanguageTool[1], which runs much faster, is more reliable, is open source, and, crucially, doesn't require sending what you wrote to a server on the Internet. Plus, it already has high-quality integrations with standard software like LibreOffice, so you don't even need to write anything yourself. [1] https://github.com/languagetool-org/languagetool

If only it didn't require Java to run. Then integration with lightweight setups like NeoVim or Emacs would be so much better and easier.

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#114

Post by azangru »

> With the advent of large language model-based artificial intelligence, semantic HTML is more important now than ever.

It's odd: I remember seeing an argument recently, though can't remember where exactly (perhaps [0]?), that LLMs make semantic HTML obsolete, because they "understand" the text anyway.

After all, humans didn't need html to be semantic in order to be able to read it — machines did. And if machines are approaching humans' capability to read texts, then doesn't this put the whole semantic html exercise into question?

0 – https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2023/05/does-ai-mean-we-dont-need-t...

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#115

Post by tannhaeuser »

re-thc wrote: post #24

Time for HTML6!?

While the term "HTML 5" hasn't been used by WHATWG HTML snapshots, and was neither endorsed by W3C for the single 2021 snapshot it blessed as recommendation in the past, the post below is arguing HTML review draft 2023 and newer should in fact be getting a new major release version since it removed/de-emphasized and invalidate Ian Hickson's historic section elements/outlining which was a major HTML 5 era innovation (which, in turn, was the problem since browsers and screen readers ignored it).

[1]: https://sgmljs.net/blog/blog2303.html

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#116

Post by kevinstubbs »

wruza wrote: post #95
p-e-w wrote: post #26

HTML is the solution to walled-garden lock-in? What? Those walled gardens already use HTML, including some of the semantic elements mentioned (plus ARIA semantic attributes, which are much more sophisticated). > ChatGPT-like interfaces are likely the future of human data access. And the whole point of artificial intelligence systems is that they don't require specialized "machine-readable" annotations in order to pro…

ChatGPT (and its future offspring) can navigate regular websites the same way humans do It seems to be at least a not-yet-true claim, but let’s ignore that for now. It’s interesting if LLMs actually could do this. As I understand it, LLMs are trained on texts and source code among other things. But lacking… let’s name it a reasoning apparatus, can they really look at a DOM tree and tell what it is/does? It’s not a te…

> can they really look at a DOM tree and tell what it is/does

Yes, if you encode the DOM as a list of options for ChatGPT to choose from. In fact I developed a proof of concept of this for a client. https://jarvys.ai/ although they seem to have pivoted from automating just the browser to automating all software.

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#117

Post by tannhaeuser »

klardotsh wrote: post #9

I had heard of almost none of these HTML elements, and that's such a shame, because they could seriously help put the "we need JavaScript for every gosh darn thing" ecosystem to an end (or at least return JS to what it was originally meant to be: a way to add some flair, some interactivity, some whatever, but not necessarily a replacement for all of your markup and a full-DOM manager). I'm starting to think my dream…

> I had heard of almost none of these HTML elements

I'm not disagreeing with the gist of your post, but come on, these elements have been around for ages. It's definitely on you to become acquainted with the basics before your HTML critic can be taken seriously ;)

The post links to MDN (arguably the most useful short reference) but there is of course also WHATWG's HTML spec or, if that's too voluminous, SGML DTD formal grammars for WHATWG HTML 2021 and 2023 snapshots [1], as well as for the older HTML 5.x series.

[1]: https://sgmljs.net/docs/html200129.html

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#118

Post by nologic01 »

HTML is one of these technologies that (still) feels pregnant with infinite possibilities. But we can't really project meaningfully what can / should happen to the web platform (and the role of HTML in it) without considering the tortured trajectory it already has traversed, e.g., the major XHTML vs HTML5 (or W3C vs WHATWG) battles, its more recent "annihilation" in the hands of SPA and JS frameworks and the multiple roles it can play. In a sense HTML is too powerful for its own good. So prevailing interests will always try to tame it towards their own needs.

HTML is the conduit and enabler of at least three distinct functionalities that are made available by a decentralized internet comprising clusters of server and client machines:

* transmitting the information to implement hypertext (=the simplest implementation of linked textual documents). This transmission of linked natural language data has changed the world already and is sufficient to support e.g., a planet of interconnected bloggers. HTML purists (like the OP) focus on this angle but this is very limiting and will never unlock all the positive potential of the web.

* transmitting semantically annotated non-text data of all types (numerical, graphical, objects etc). This vision has never really materialized in either its XHTML or SVG guises. Today the only hint that HTML is capable of transmitting such data is the table element. Yet it has enough in-principle semantics to transmit any JSON object.

* transmitting UI elements. Why do we need UI elements at all and are they intrinsically evil? The core function of UI elements, both the semantic aspect (hierarchical relations) and the geometric aspect (i.e. CSS and mapping stuff to a 2D screen) are essential and entirely benign. They simply help organize more complex patterns. HTML ultras that avoid CSS essentially rely on default such mappings.

Imho an alternative vision to the degenerate web of today that is simply the funnel that gets you to the walled gardens built by adtech (actually humanity grinding machines) must stop being naive, simplistic and Luddite. In all these web technologies of yesterday you can trace battles that were lost, paths not taken.

The web we want is an empowering, democratic, decentralized platform that respects and elevates individuals in the digital realm. This web is not tech-phobic. It is confident and develops / adopts any and all technologies that fit is values.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHATWG

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#119

Post by KronisLV »

delusional wrote: post #112
wruza wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ChatGPT (and its future offspring) can navigate regular websites the same way humans do It seems to be at least a not-yet-true claim, but let’s ignore that for now. It’s interesting if LLMs actually could do this. As I understand it, LLMs are trained on texts and source code among other things. But lacking… let’s name it a reasoning apparatus, can they really look at a DOM tree and tell what it is/does? It’s not a te…

> “LLMs will look at any .exe and be able to integrate with it immediately”. The LLM will look at any .exe and determine if it halts.

> The LLM will look at any .exe and determine if it halts.

At that point you'd need an AGI that can figure out something we can't.

Edit: but yeah, sarcasm. Nowadays I can't even tell sometimes.

Re: I'm betting on HTML

#120

Post by irrational »

The main thing I want added to the html spec is a spreadsheet element. It could be an enhancement to the table element. I want it to support sorting, filtering, pagination out of the box. And be responsive to boot.
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