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Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

sendthemyourmoney.com

71–80 of 135 posts

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#71
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question on how much Joe would have paid is interesting in an academic setting, but quite impossible to answer. To make an example, tap water is worth exactly 0$, but had my only option been to purchase water from the store, then the price I would be willing to pay would be substantially large. The way west society solved the question on how we pay the utility guys who maintain the water supply is with taxes. Cop…

What about some kind of model where the artist gets paid before a work of art is created? Say in the style of Kickstarter. The artist does not create the work until their desired threshold is reached. Or another alternative is to create an adopt an artist program where people can sponsor artists to create their work--the more sponsorships an artists gets, the more and better work they can create. In either case, once…

Perhaps this might make it difficult for new artists to get off the ground or discovered.

Form organizations which take the money and pay the artists salaries. Now becoming a new artist becomes similar to becoming a new programmer or architect or whatever.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#72
Hold on - I thought this was an awesome idea right up until it was a joke.

Why don't we actually give the RIAA millions of dollars?

Like, the argument from all advocates of digital freedom isn't that artists don't need money to survive, but by making things simple and easy, people will quite willingly part with their money.

So why not solve this "chicken and egg" issue by hurling a few eggs their way to get the ball rolling?

Let's give them shitloads of money to prove that people will willingly pay for their product.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#73
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Imho this argument that copying is not stealing does a real disservice to the cause. No, you're not stealing a thing when you copy it, but you are stealing the utility that it confers, be it entertainment, knowledge or whatever, that you would otherwise have had to pay for. You're taking value and not compensating for it, aka theft. This is so transparent and obvious a flaw in the assertion that no trained la…

This particular trained lawyer wishes that we could never talk about whether copyright infringement is stealing, ever again. It's 100% legally irrelevant. There are laws against stealing physical property. Copyright infringement doesn't violate them. There are laws against copyright infringement. Copyright infringement does violate them. The question of whether "stealing" is good shorthand for "copyright infringement…

Thank you for a very clear, informative post.

I've thought about this a fair amount, and you still managed to explain it in a way that made it new to me.

You do credit to lawyerkind.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#74
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but not so clear if Barney just copied the exact design and made his own Actually, I think it was quite clearly a good thing if Barney made his own copy and they both had dry heads. This remains true until everyone decides it's better for Fred to spend all his time designing hats rather than hunting, and we need a way to be sure to feed Fred. For this to happen we need technology to advance to the point where we ha…

>This remains true until everyone decides it's better for Fred to spend all his time designing hats rather than hunting Specialization of labor became widespread around 3500BC, with the appearance of civilization. After that point, potters, goldsmiths, tailors etc. kept on freely copying designs from each other and "got away" with it for over 5000 years. (In times when punishment for theft was often physical mutilati…

Thomas Jefferson's take on the subject of intellectual property is interesting to say the least and has a nice clarity to it;

"It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs.

But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors.

It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance.

By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it; but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it.

Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society.

It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property.

If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it.

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation.

Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from any body.

Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea.

In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices."

from, The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826

http://odur.let.rug.nl/usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl220.htm

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#75
post #42
post #10

Very creative and thought provoking, but wrong. A DVD version of avatar sells for say $20 and Riaa gets some percentage of that. Joe blow downloads avatar for free from google or some other website, ptp or sneakernet. Joe blow sends the riaa some percentage of $20 in photocopied money. That does not provide the same utility for riaa as the avatar.mp4 did for Joe blow. Whether or not Joe blow's download of avatar for…

The RIAA doesn't sue you on the claim that you received some utility from the downloaded copy. They sue you simply because you made a copy. If I download a movie and absolutely hate it, or never even watch it, or it turns out to be terrible quality, then I didn't receive much utility from the pirated copy, but I'm still just as liable.

Actually, to my knowledge, the MafiAA has never sued someone for downloading a pirated copy of something - only for actually sharing out a copy (which they may or may not have had legal right to) to others (when they did not have any distribution rights in any case).

Note: BitTorrent counts as doing both, by definition

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#76
post #72

Hold on - I thought this was an awesome idea right up until it was a joke. Why don't we actually give the RIAA millions of dollars? Like, the argument from all advocates of digital freedom isn't that artists don't need money to survive, but by making things simple and easy, people will quite willingly part with their money. So why not solve this "chicken and egg" issue by hurling a few eggs their way to get the ball…

The problem with that is that the RIAA/MPAA produce no products. They are lobbying organizations for the publishers in their respective industries; they don't have much relation to the artists at all.

If one was truly inclined to pay the artists who produced an album (or the equivalent in a different content industry), it would be best to send it to them directly. Then they'd realize (a la Louis CK) that the publishers are unnecessary middlemen in the creator/consumer relationship, thus obsolescing that entire segment of industry and the RIAA/MPAA with it.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#77
post #10

Very creative and thought provoking, but wrong. A DVD version of avatar sells for say $20 and Riaa gets some percentage of that. Joe blow downloads avatar for free from google or some other website, ptp or sneakernet. Joe blow sends the riaa some percentage of $20 in photocopied money. That does not provide the same utility for riaa as the avatar.mp4 did for Joe blow. Whether or not Joe blow's download of avatar for…

I think any argument that involves file sharing has to start with an understanding of copyright. I wrote a bit about it here: http://zacharyalberico.com/day/2012/01/24.

The utility and ownership arguments become more problematic in this context.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#78
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Imho this argument that copying is not stealing does a real disservice to the cause. No, you're not stealing a thing when you copy it, but you are stealing the utility that it confers, be it entertainment, knowledge or whatever, that you would otherwise have had to pay for. You're taking value and not compensating for it, aka theft. This is so transparent and obvious a flaw in the assertion that no trained la…

>you're not stealing a thing when you copy it, but you are stealing the utility that it confers [...] that you would otherwise have had to pay for. You're taking value and not compensating for it, aka theft. I think our metaphors of property and theft are stretched to the breaking limit with digital content. When social rules first appeared, it was clearly wrong if Fred Flintstone made himself an awesome hat and Barn…

> Copyright and patents only appeared in the 18th century.

I find the argument that copyright and patents appear only recently in historical terms unconvincing. Following that line of reasoning shoudln't we be even more wary of e.g. universal suffrage and civil rights laws?

Moreover, that these laws occured relatively late in human history is IMO unsurprising, even to be expected given the state of human evolution. At the risk dilettantism, here's what Wikipedia has to say about the history of "copyright":

> Copyright was invented after the advent of the printing press and with wider public literacy.

Whether or not one agrees with copyright law, I would argue that the relevant laws followed technological innovations at some lag -- and did not just appear randomly or as a result of some kind of conspiracy.

Wikipedia puts the original date for Patents at 500BC, but if you read a few sentences further the industrial revolution appears. So again, the argument applies: effort expended on legal action followed effort expended on technological process, at some lag.

And even if we look before the industrial revolution, and before the printing press, history provides us with a wealth of examples of groups of individuals trying to preserve or protect their "edge" in crafts (often acquired through hard work and ingenuity, sometimes, through fortune), techniques, or otherwise "patentable" methods, with often far higher consequences than what are being proposed currently. (Though, admittedly, that means nothing.) I'm thinking for example of guilds of various forms throughout Mideaval Europe, as well as China. My knowledge in this area is not that extensive, but there are a few colourful examples in "The Rise and Decline of Nations" by Mancur Olson, e.g. IIRC one guild in China collectively biting another master to death for taking on too many apprentices (copies!) for fashioning gold leaf -- gold leaf for the king (no less), whose protection was worth nothing to him in the face of the guild's desire to protect its "IP".

So I think a case can be made that IP of some form has been around for a long, long time; it's not some accident brought about by a single, poorly-written law. It's not a relatively recent, arcane (thus exploitable) area of justice. Mankind has been grappling with these issues, these tradeoffs, for as long as human progress has existed, and will presumably continue to do so at each "singularity". It's right and proper that we have this debate; it's right and proper that the creative industries demand a say in new technologies, insofar as those technologies depend on the transmission of creative works to be interesting and demanded.

> The RIAA's version of morality is not handed down from Heaven, you know: its rectitude is at least as questionable as its practicality.

Agreed, sadly, none in the filesharing camp has offered anything even remotely resembling morality. You tend to see something along the lines of "I'm not talking about morality, I'm just giving you reality etc" (followed by "want some of my cash? dance, bitch!").

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#79
post #10

Very creative and thought provoking, but wrong. A DVD version of avatar sells for say $20 and Riaa gets some percentage of that. Joe blow downloads avatar for free from google or some other website, ptp or sneakernet. Joe blow sends the riaa some percentage of $20 in photocopied money. That does not provide the same utility for riaa as the avatar.mp4 did for Joe blow. Whether or not Joe blow's download of avatar for…

I'll take the pirated 1080p version that doesn't have unskipable adverts, copy protection, and the extra commentary track. I don't care about any of the "extra features" that Hollywood seems to sprinkle into every DVD. Their business model is broken, but they are not going to go down without a fight.

Re: Send Them Your Money: A Campaign to Send The RIAA/MPAA Billions

#80
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular trained lawyer wishes that we could never talk about whether copyright infringement is stealing, ever again. It's 100% legally irrelevant. There are laws against stealing physical property. Copyright infringement doesn't violate them. There are laws against copyright infringement. Copyright infringement does violate them. The question of whether "stealing" is good shorthand for "copyright infringement…

Thank you for a very clear, informative post. I've thought about this a fair amount, and you still managed to explain it in a way that made it new to me. You do credit to lawyerkind.

Well, hello Nicholas.
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