A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#131

Post by jes5199 » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 9:14 PM UTC

JeremiahNunn wrote: post #115

mwidarto wrote: post #94

I develop an educational app geared for kids and just like some of the people here. I dislike ads, in app purchase, external link etc so I made sure that my app doesn't have any of those and price it at $0.99. I keep updating it based on user feedback to make the app better. It's good to read that there are a lot of parent here that say they won't purchase any app with ads and/or inapp purchases for their kids but I…

There are ways to do in-app purchases for kid apps that aren't unethical. In fact, allowing people to try your app before buying it is a very ethical thing to do. Don't limit yourself unnecessarily, and don't assume kid apps with iAP must be from shady developers.

I know you feel like everyone is being unreasonable about this, but instead of trying to change their minds, consider it market research: parents on hacker news overwhelmingly distrust iAP, and maybe that means some other form of try-before-you-buy would be more appropriate for kids' apps.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#132

Post by Tooluka » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 9:17 PM UTC

JeremiahNunn wrote: post #120

celticninja wrote: post #32

If your app for children includes in-app purchases I will delete it as soon as I realise. At present this is just a frustration for my 2 year old as he doesnt understand why the game is no longer on the screen, but as he gets older he is more likely to try and pester me into buying. Not Going To Happen, plus I will leave a 1 star review of your app based on in app purchases alone. iPads and iPhones are not bought by…

You leave a 1-star review because you can't be bothered to do some research ahead of time? Or did you assume that a free app, that otherwise was of decent quality, should really be free and the developer should be making content for you and your kid just for the love of it? In app purchase is a great way to let the user try the app before buying it. And there's a way to do it in kid apps that isn't unethical or takin…

This is called "natural selection". You are currently observing an app-store customer in the wild, seeing its habits and preferences. You can't get another, domestic, customer because they die out in the cages from severe ADs overdose, so you are left with only two choices: 1. Do nothing new; 2. Learn how to interact with existing, wild, customer population, who, oh blasphemy!, doesn't like IAPs.

Your apps. Your choice.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#133

Post by signalsignal » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 9:23 PM UTC

Tooluka wrote: post #127

ArtB wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry how is that even remotely reasonably priced? It has a limited market, that can't buy their product, that is hard to make engaging and appropriate. Either be willing to pay $15 a pop, be willing to accept in product advertising, in product upselling, are really basic (ie non custom story book artwork), or that they shouldn't exist at all. Frankly, sounds like you are asking just too much.

15$ for quality product is ok. Chaptered games/applications (iWork etc.) are ok. ADs are not. IAPs are not. This should be tattooed on every single iOS dev. PS: I actually wish there would be at least few 30-60$ games in the store. And not those crappy ports of gamepad/mouse games (shooters etc.) with unplayable controls. Or some good, but very old, not so polished ports of ports of classic games (FFT). It would be n…

Tattooed? Sorry, but this comes across as a rant.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#134

Post by Tooluka » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 9:26 PM UTC

Tooluka wrote: post #127

ArtB wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry how is that even remotely reasonably priced? It has a limited market, that can't buy their product, that is hard to make engaging and appropriate. Either be willing to pay $15 a pop, be willing to accept in product advertising, in product upselling, are really basic (ie non custom story book artwork), or that they shouldn't exist at all. Frankly, sounds like you are asking just too much.

15$ for quality product is ok. Chaptered games/applications (iWork etc.) are ok. ADs are not. IAPs are not. This should be tattooed on every single iOS dev. PS: I actually wish there would be at least few 30-60$ games in the store. And not those crappy ports of gamepad/mouse games (shooters etc.) with unplayable controls. Or some good, but very old, not so polished ports of ports of classic games (FFT). It would be n…

Can't reply to the comment below. About "tattooed" word - this is usually called irony. And it is a common phrase about "remembering things", I don't see what's so bad about saying that.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#135

Post by sopooneo » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

tylermenezes wrote: post #114

veidr wrote: post #48

I'm curious: don't any other people here think 2-year-old kids shouldn't be playing iPad games at all ? I'm convinced that watching TV is harmful to a child's intellectual development. (And there's an established body of evidence to support that.) As a kid, I hated my hippie Montessori teacher mom for allowing me only one hour of TV per week as a kid in the late 70s and early 80s (elementary school; I usually chose t…

As a hacker, I'm sure you know, ideals are often different than what actually happens. I often see kids in restaurants. Half of them are screechy. The other half have something to play with. Usually iPads or iPhones, because they're easy to carry, and don't get boring. They're not a choking hazard and won't cut you. Sure, you might like the idea of keeping them away from video games, but it's probably not going to wo…

He implied it was hard, not easy.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#136

Post by dagw » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:05 PM UTC

veidr wrote: post #48

I'm curious: don't any other people here think 2-year-old kids shouldn't be playing iPad games at all ? I'm convinced that watching TV is harmful to a child's intellectual development. (And there's an established body of evidence to support that.) As a kid, I hated my hippie Montessori teacher mom for allowing me only one hour of TV per week as a kid in the late 70s and early 80s (elementary school; I usually chose t…

Your average 2 year old is awake for anything from 10-14 hours, so even you let your kid play with the iPad 2 hours a day (which I'm sure most people will agree is a lot), that still leaves 8-12 hours a day for Not iPad. I can't speak for all 2 year olds, but my 2 year old needs some down time after 8 hours of running around and general playing.

Further there is a lot more to the iPad than simply "video games". For example, my daughter loves looking at pictures. Both of herself and her friends, but also of her grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, people whom she only sees a few times year and so the photos are the main way she has to remember them between visits. And even the "video games" are genuinely educational, teaching things like shape matching, colours, the names of animals and so on.

Then there is the "selfish" aspect. After 3 hours running around the playground followed by an hour of playing the build-a-tower-of-blocks-and-knock-them-down game I want a few minutes to enjoy the luxuries of life, like going to the bathroom by myself or drinking a cup of coffee without someone trying to spill it, and the iPad is a good way to distract her for those precious minutes.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#137

Post by jackpirate » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:12 PM UTC

ArtB wrote: post #89

huhtenberg wrote: post #41

Spot on regarding the in-app purchases. I have a rule of giving 1 star rating to any kid's game that has them regardless of how well it's done and if my kids actually enjoy the non-gimmicky part. Milking parents by making their kids beg and nag them is an unethical way to earn money.

> Milking parents by making their kids beg and nag them is an unethical way to earn money. I believe that the primary way the market for children's toys and goods works, if you watch The Corporation they interview a psychologist that explicitly helps exploit this behaviour. So, you might find it unethical, but its the norm and avoiding it is like shopping for clothes that used no-sweatshop labour.

>So, you might find it unethical, but its the norm and avoiding it is like shopping for clothes that used no-sweatshop labour.

If he finds it unethical, it doesn't matter if it's the norm. He shouldn't do it. In both cases, there are clear and relatively easy alternatives.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#138

Post by rhizome » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:19 PM UTC

jes5199 wrote: post #129

rhizome wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it can really help a child sit down, focus, and learn things under their own steam, without that Brave New World programming that comes from most TV sets. Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD.

A single sentence is not enough evidence to diagnose someone with a mental illness.

Absolutely, which is why I didn't say mere "focus." Just something to be aware of when deciding the benefits of a technology.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#139

Post by signalsignal » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:24 PM UTC

Steuard wrote: post #110

smashing wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are they being given a phone and not a children's toy?

Are you suggesting that "Talking Tom Cat" is not a children's toy? Because otherwise, you're sounding more than a little self-righteous here. I don't know the answers, but I think it's reasonable to ask whether technology can make a positive contribution to kids' lives. I don't think it's productive to belittle people for experimenting with ways of doing so.

It is not a children's toy anymore than a laptop computer is a kid's toy. The software on a machine doesn't change the delicacy of the hardware. People who want rock solid, well-tested toys for children are better off buying a LeapPad than handing their 4 year-old a $500 iphone or iPad.

Re: A Dad’s Plea To Developers Of iPad Apps For Children

#140

Post by dagw » Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 10:28 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #122

grannyg00se wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But perhaps my thinking about it is too coarse, since iPad apps can be hybrids of both." Right. How would your screen time limitation work if the screen was being used to read a book? And the book may be even more interactive than a traditional book. Then there's a line that can get crossed where the book has now become a game. But even then, if it's educational and informative as a book is, why limit that just beca…

> And the book may be even more interactive than a traditional book. // Books are not interactive. Isn't that the point, they're supposed to be entirely passive objects used solely to feed ideas to the imagination/consciousness/memory. > why limit that just because it's on a screen? // To encourage the child to develop interaction in the real world first.

Books are not interactive

Kids books often are. Many of my daughters favorite books have lots of flaps and pull tabs that make things move. Opening the flap on the third thing and seeing the number '3' or guessing which item is in which box based only on the shape of the box and then opening the box to see if you where right is endless fun if you're into that sort of thing.