Live data from Hacker News

First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

apnews.com

261–270 of 361 posts

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#261
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing gas heating with heat pumps is going to increase, not reduce, electricity use.

Replacing gas heating with solar thermal is even cheaper and doesn’t. Electric heat pumps are viable when electricity is cheap or demand is low and you want AC, the more they drive up electric costs the more alternatives become viable. Net effect you tend to see them in areas where there’s a surplus of winter electricity which also tends to be places with minimal demand for heating like Virginia rather than Mane. 46%…

Solar thermal heating is not going to produce much energy in the winter when there's fewer hours of sunlight and more hours of cloud coverage - which just so happens to coincide with places that would need heating during the winter. Solar thermal performance is worse with diffuse light (read: overcast days) than PV solar, in fact that's a big part of why it was largely abandoned in the 2000s.

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#262
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With nuclear you're burning your powerplant, essentially. That the fuel is comparatively cheap is irrelevant, since that's not what's dominating the cost of power.

That's what I said. It's the cost of the powerplant that drives nuclear's cost. But you can reduce that dramatically via mass production of power plants. It will be a cheap source of electricity if done right. And we don't want just one energy source for everything anyways.

It's not at all clear mass production of nuclear power plants will reduce cost. This has not been demonstrated. It runs counter to economies of scale from large power plants.

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t leave out the coal miners. The history of oppressive companies, grueling work conditions, constant possibility of death through any number of horrible circumstances, and the lifelong damage of unprotected mining on the lungs has harmed generations of families should never be forgotten.

Meanwhile as a population they’re voting for people who want more coal mining. They are 6 figure jobs in a depressed economic area.

And yet, what if that labor went into nuclear construction instead? How many 6 figure construction jobs is many multi-billion $ nuclear plants?

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but the nuclear fuel is carefully contained during and after use. Not so much for coal.

The decay products of uranium are not well contained at uranium mines. They are in massive tailing piles, just as the radioactive elements in coal end up in ash. Less gets said about these mine-related radioactive elements because they are typically in other countries, often countries where the people have darker skins.

Over 82% of uranium production is outside of Africa, in countries like Kazakhstan, Canada, Australia, and Russia...

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#265
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an incredible misrepresentation. The only thing nuclear can't do is respond to sudden demand surges. But that's what batteries can do (it's also the only thing they can do well). This[1] is the Australian energy market operator dashboard. Note the demand curve. It is not sudden in anyway - it is highly, highly predictable. Nuclear reactors can handle that sort of curve just fine - you roll the control ro…

Your counterargument there betrays a complete misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't claiming that nuclear power plants couldn't technically ramp up and down. I will happily stipulate that they could. I was arguing it was economically ludicrous to do so. That's because most of the costs of nuclear are fixed: capital cost, financing costs, fixed manpower costs. If you operate the power plant at low capac…

Take a real close look at the scale on that dashboard. While peak power is about 9Gw, sometimes up to 12GW, the lowest power output overnight is 6GW and that's the absolute bottom.

So in a standard 24 hour day, there is at minimum 6GW of capacity which is always available and always demanded. And for most of year that's 2/3rds of the total demand which ever applies.

The question you are not answering is whether the cost of building a proportionally larger nuclear plant - i.e. one which can meet the upper ends of this scale - is substantially more expensive then a smaller one.

The answer is pretty obviously no: nuclear plants are front-loaded in capital and construction costs, but their relative size has very little impact on the cost of building them, or their maintenance needs, or even fueling costs.

The reality is renewables haven't got anything on that except from an electricity market which mostly doesn't care about them. Start asking renewable generators to well you guaranteed kilowatt-hours throughout the year and watch the "cheap" power skyrocket in cost.

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#266
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with pumped-hydro is - and all storage based solutions is - how low can you let the storage get before it's an emergency? Electricity is a vital service: completely vital. Without it, modern civilization halts. It might be annoying being unable to make a cup of coffee, but municipal water and sewage need electricity to work. You go without power for a week, and the entire wastewater infrastructure will st…

You seem to be assuming pumped hydro is the only storage technology used. This is a common problem in the anti-renewable arguments. You pick a particular design for an energy system, argue it doesn't work, then (wrongly) claim no renewable energy system can work. But to reach that conclusion, you have to show that no combination of elements can make a system that works. It makes sense to have multiple storage technol…

You are proposing build 4 times the power generation: Renewables for the daytime load, Renewables for charging the night time storage, the night time storage, and then a whole extra set of power plants for emergency standby.

Why would hydrogen combustion plants - which don't exist at the moment, don't have turbines on the market, don't have a fuel supply pipeline - be cheaper then current coal fired powerplants?

So your cost of generation already is - at minimum - at least as expensive as a coal fired powerplant, in terms of fixed costs for maintenance (and investment - who's building these when they can't sell the power from them?)

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#267
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be assuming pumped hydro is the only storage technology used. This is a common problem in the anti-renewable arguments. You pick a particular design for an energy system, argue it doesn't work, then (wrongly) claim no renewable energy system can work. But to reach that conclusion, you have to show that no combination of elements can make a system that works. It makes sense to have multiple storage technol…

You are proposing build 4 times the power generation: Renewables for the daytime load, Renewables for charging the night time storage, the night time storage, and then a whole extra set of power plants for emergency standby. Why would hydrogen combustion plants - which don't exist at the moment, don't have turbines on the market, don't have a fuel supply pipeline - be cheaper then current coal fired powerplants? So y…

Hydrogen combustion CC plants will certainly have a capital cost less than coal fired plants. They will be almost identical to natural gas fired CC plants (just the combustor will be different). These are known to be quite inexpensive, costing maybe $1/W.

There need not be any fuel pipeline, since the plant can be built at the hydrogen storage site. The electrolysers will be there also.

There have been industrial turbines that burn hydrogen for decades. It's not some sort of exotic technology.

Yes, there are many parts here. And it's still cheaper than nuclear. Nuclear is pathetic in that way.

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile as a population they’re voting for people who want more coal mining. They are 6 figure jobs in a depressed economic area.

And yet, what if that labor went into nuclear construction instead? How many 6 figure construction jobs is many multi-billion $ nuclear plants?

What percent of coal miners do you think could make that transition?

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#269
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard to see projects that take ~14 years to produce the first kWh urgent solutions to anything. Spend the same money starting in the same year and the first solar project makes enough money to fund a second which then also comes online before your nuclear power plant is ready. Which doesn’t make nuclear useless, but it’s really disappointing if you’re in the industry.

I feel like the root of the pro/against nuclear debate comes down to your outlook on storage :) I'm skeptical that storage can meet our needs (would love to be wrong! haven't seen a convincing analysis, yet), so I think we need a reliable form of continuous power. The only option currently on the table for that is nuclear, so, I boost nuclear. I dislike the nuclear nay-saying, because it further delays an already slo…

What exactly do you find unconvincing? Just comparing grid storage needs vs EV’s suggests battery production capacity isn’t going to be an issue so it simplifies to cost across say 20+ years.

There’s a lot of very simplistic analysis that makes things seem vastly worse but you don’t need crazy assumptions for things to look reasonable. Basically the more sources of energy you can add to the mix the cheaper things become as you only include them when you save money. Thus if you ignore Wind in an estimate adding wind can only lower costs, ditto for nuclear, geothermal, etc.

Hydro is reliable and better than continuous power because it’s flexible enough you can fill in gaps based on what you forecast production will be across the next week. US only gets 6.2% of its power from hydro so the rest of the world actually looks better than these numbers.

How much Solar to build is part of a complex optimization problem, simplify it 2c/kWh of capacity but 1/2 of all solar power is wasted over a year ~= 4c/kWh. Further, let’s assume 1/2 of all solar is used directly with the rest available to charge daily batteries again pessimistic with that kind of oversupply and HVDC lines etc but whatever. 50% - 5% (hydro) = 45% of total demand from batteries. (Wind drops this by a lot.)

Projecting LCOE for batteries and Battery degradation is closely correlated with use so 120$/MWh is again high long term.

Now our worst case is something like 4c/kWh (solar/hydro) + 12c/kWh (batteries) * 45% = 9.4c/kWh for 24/7/365 power with zero fossil fuels and zero nuclear. On the surface that might seem terrible or awesome depending on what your local rates look like, but this was a very pessimistic estimate.

Our pro nuclear investor needs to be pessimistic in the other direction. Remember demand is shifted to cheaper nighttime rates, if daytime electricity is cheaper then nighttime use drops further. Baseline numbers of say 4c/kWh production + 80$/MWh batteries * 30% = 6.4c/kWh 24/7/365. If you’re considering building nuclear and projecting 60+ years out those kind of numbers represent a real threat without any dramatic breakthroughs.

PS: You can plug your own assumptions in here, but remember people are trying to minimize costs and we already have existing infrastructure that isn’t being replaced that quickly. I doubt we’ll average under 20% natural gas within 20 years due to flexibility, which dramatically reduces the need for batteries and excess solar. That sounds bad, but mix in significant EV adoption and it still becomes a vast reduction in CO2 emissions, while even lower costs discourage Nuclear.

Re: First new US nuclear reactor in decades enters commercial operation in Georgia

#270
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your counterargument there betrays a complete misunderstanding of the point I was making. I wasn't claiming that nuclear power plants couldn't technically ramp up and down. I will happily stipulate that they could. I was arguing it was economically ludicrous to do so. That's because most of the costs of nuclear are fixed: capital cost, financing costs, fixed manpower costs. If you operate the power plant at low capac…

Take a real close look at the scale on that dashboard. While peak power is about 9Gw, sometimes up to 12GW, the lowest power output overnight is 6GW and that's the absolute bottom. So in a standard 24 hour day, there is at minimum 6GW of capacity which is always available and always demanded. And for most of year that's 2/3rds of the total demand which ever applies. The question you are not answering is whether the c…

If your argument there was correct, people would be building ginormous nuclear plants and not focusing on SMRs.

But many components of a nuclear plant have size that scales with power. There are some economies of scale, but they're fairly marginal. It's mostly to amortize fixed operating costs (like personnel) over more output.

Post reply on HN