Live data from Hacker News

99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

cnn.com

121–130 of 143 posts

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This works in a vacuum, but in many industries you get undercharging and living off investments, be it Uber or a gajillion startups, many of them mentioned here on HN.

Why are industries dominated by large unprofitable companies? I was told the way to succeed was to offer goods and services that people want, make a profit and grow the company; this was a key benefit of the free market and ensured consumers had access to many good choices and it was all stable and sustainable. Instead unprofitable companies dominate, not because they succeeded in the market, but because they receive…

>Why are industries dominated by large unprofitable companies?

In general, they arent and companies that remain unprofitable dont stick around in the long term.

You also need to be aware that there are different ways to calculate profitability, so not all of the headline losses mean what you might think.

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lo barato sale caro" which translates to the "the cheap becomes expensive". If you see something that is cheaper then everything else, just assume they're cutting corners in places that matter. It will be interesting to see how many millions of dollars they use to keep the executive team in place during the bankruptcy despite the fact it's their decisions that lead to failure. I also wonder how much student debt we…

> "Lo barato sale caro" which translates to the "the cheap becomes expensive" 99% true with some very few exceptions. I remember Evan Davis' on a BBC podcast called "The Bottom Line". In said podcast he was interviewing various business people. One of them was the CEO of Primark. Over 'here' (in Europe - in multiple countries) you can see MASSIVE stores (I haven't yet been on a Primark store that was smaller than a f…

Sounds like Walmart in the US. They're able to achieve their prices by robbing the employees of a livable wage.

If you look online, Primark continues to engage in this illegal behavior after getting caught on numerous occasions, just like Walmart.

https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/minimum-....

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jul/02/w...

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#124
post #71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pensions seem like an outdated concept, when 401Ks and IRAs are options. Pensions are essentially a tradeoff of lower pay now in exchange for benefits in the future, with a sprinkle of an incentive for increased retention added in, but with the critical downside (to the employer) of it basically being an unbounded, undefined financial downside for them at the tail end. Employers should pay people, contribute to their…

My counterargument to this is: Pension/retirement arrangements where the contributions are defined but the benefits are not are a risk to the individual -- you have to figure out "how much do I want to invest, what do I think the market will do, where should I put the money?", and if you get it wrong you don't have enough money in retirement. For the company, on the other hand, they're very low risk, because the amou…

> Pension/retirement arrangements where the contributions are defined but the benefits are not are a risk to the individual ... and if you get it wrong you don't have enough money in retirement.

I think this is slightly overstated. The most common outcome in this situation is that you work more, the amount of extra work being determined by the size of the error.

> In general my preference is that (as a society) we should prefer to impose risks not on individuals but on large organizations who can afford to employ people who take the time to assess those risks and make the necessary decisions, and who have the resources and timescales to be able to weather unexpected downturns. So I think defined-benefit is better than defined-contribution.

This isn’t a bad point, and is strengthened by the observation that pensions benefit from pooled risk. E.g. those that live longer are subsidized by those who unluckily die younger, so everyone on average gets away with slightly lesser contributions (or earlier retirements).

But it misses out on incentive mismatches with pensions. A pension administrator is probably not going to work at the company in question for their whole career, and their incentive career wise is probably not the long term maximization of risk adjusted return for this pension, but instead perhaps taking risky bets hoping they pay off for notoriety, or avoiding risk at all costs to avoid complaints.

And this dovetails into some really hairy aspects of pensions that aren’t often brought up.

For one, they generally punish people for alternative lifestyles. Imagine trying to be a childless person retiring early with a pension that doesn’t kick in until 65 because the typical person has kids and works that long.

Also, pensions can be discriminatory. Imagine having a disease that shortens your lifespan, like MS, or a higher risk factor for something like early onset dementia. It’s entirely possible you’re forced to contribute to a pension program you have every likelihood of not being able to benefit from in your natural lifespan.

For a more common example, women live longer than men. Should men have to contribute less for the same benefits then?

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#125

My dad worked for Yellow on the loading docks from the day he returned from Vietnam to the late-90s. He earned a good wage for a guy who only graduated high school; provided a solid middle-class life for his family. And it was all because of the union. The Teamsters was like religion to my dad. I always respected the union for what it provided for my dad and his family. I can't stress that enough. However, I can't fo…

Plenty of companies have corrupt, inefficient groups of employees without unions though.

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#126

What would be the legality of using stock shorts to fund a labour strike? I'd imagine having all workers walk out would be pretty effective in tanking the stock price, and letting those workers know that they'd be fully funded for any time on the picket line would be huge for solidarity. One could imagine that timing a strike around predetermined stock based compensation executive payouts might provide a bit more inc…

You are describing insider trading, I'm pretty sure.

Either the strike is announced before you make the shorts, and public knowledge, or it's not, and it's information you only know by connection to insider information.

-note, am not remotely a lawyer

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. One either makes the risk very small, and therefore being a very expensive benefit from the very beginning, or be aggressive, and risk being an underfunded benefit. Either way you slice it, someone providing defined contributions instead is far safer, and can safely outcompete the defined benefit company, as they aren't taking on either si…

> Can you? A defined benefit plan is ultimately involving someone taking a risk. Yup. No less than Warren Buffett, who spent literally his entire career performing risk analyses, could figure out a way to manage defined benefit plan risk, and stated as such in a (now famous) memo in the late 60s or early 70s. Couple that with the number of pension defaults and pension haircuts that have occurred and are likely to con…

The memo in question:

https://davidcoveney.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/16030128...

It helps a LOT if you also have an investing genius giving you tips on how to allocate the plan assets!

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#128
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't the unions. If you've interacted with Yellow you'd know that. It's that the company is disorganized and management is nowhere to be found. Look at UPS - union shop, going strong. Management is organized. Company is doing fine.

UPS is not a comparable company.

No true union, I guess

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#129
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, government bailouts of private companies really need to stop. It just prolongs the problem and doesn't allow the market to properly respond to risks and rewards.

This bailout was not for the shareholders, it was for the union (as is often the case). Bailouts usually benefit creditors, not the equity holders. edited for clarity

Why should creditors get bailed out? If they do, they'll keep making risky credit decisions. If they get burned, they'll be more careful next time.

Re: 99-year old trucking company Yellow shuts down, putting 30k out of work

#130
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This bailout was not for the shareholders, it was for the union (as is often the case). Bailouts usually benefit creditors, not the equity holders. edited for clarity

Why should creditors get bailed out? If they do, they'll keep making risky credit decisions. If they get burned, they'll be more careful next time.

I don't think they should get bailed out, but to be clear, being 'burned' means being laid off, with an end to wage payments, and no severance.
Post reply on HN