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IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

koshka.love

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Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#431

Post by pabs3 »

TkTech wrote: post #209
redserk wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not suggest IRC logs are much better. Individual clients may be able to log but say you just join a project channel with years of discussion — you’d have literally nothing to start with. Discord gives you a chance at searching old history with zero additional setup if the permissions allow. For both IRC and Discord you’d need to run a bot to have truly open logs online.

I've just started adding logs to notifico (ex: https://n.tkte.ch/c/1/2023-07-28 ), which is very barebones. Don't get much time to work on it, but I'm working on implementing search in a cost-effective manner. If the ~3000 IRC channels that use Notifico opt-in to logging they'll get it for free permanently, and I'll be offering nightly dumps to an SFTP server of your choice to make sure there's no lock-in. You're tot…

Is there a list of channels that notifico logs? Also your calendar widget links to dates with no logs.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#432

Post by kakwa_ »

kyrofa wrote: post #283
kakwa_ wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was not a really issue... as long as you had access to a shell on a reliable server to screen+irssi (or tmux+weechat if you felt fancy).

Well sure, I used a bouncer like everyone else because of this issue (and for persistent presence since I dealt with people in different timezones), but that is a workaround for a protocol that isn't actually reliable, which is sort of my point.

Yes, I know :)

My comment was ironic, solution like that are not practicable for common users.

The rise of alternative chat platforms (discord, matrix, slack) really demonstrates IRC was too limited.

I will remember it foundly but the era where IRC was the dominent open channel chat platform is at its end.

I just hope Discord will not be it's long term replacement.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#433

Post by Zetice »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #430
Zetice wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The client is the “bot” , which you know and are intentionally being obtuse. And your links aren’t in any way suggesting the server logs messages, please try again. But none of this is relevant to the original point that you can 100% obtain equal or better outcomes using Discord in all cases for conversation persistence. Complaining about Discord as a replacement to IRC is ignorant and pointless.

I'm not being obtuse. The biggest problem with discord bots is that you need a completely different kind of account to have a bot, and even worse that account can't join servers normally. You're not allowed to run a logger on your own personal account. Because of that, IRC gives better results in many scenarios. Discord is not equal or better in all cases. If I don't set up a special arrangement with the moderators o…

Just because you don’t know how to write a Discord bot doesn’t mean it’s meaningfully difficult due to it requiring a different account type, in fact that makes it easier in many respects.

And in the case we’re discussing, you run the server and can freely allow whatever you want.

Discord is superior or equal to IRC in every meaningful way here.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#434

Post by Zetice »

eropple wrote: post #370
Zetice wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why bring up IRC’s lack of a “pleasant” app? Just seems like a problem you can and should solve for yourself, but is otherwise wholly unrelated to the protocol. One doesn’t complain about http because the mobile browser options aren’t to one’s liking.

> Then why bring up IRC’s lack of a “pleasant” app? Because...I was expressing why it isn't fit for purpose? > One doesn’t complain about http because the mobile browser options aren’t to one’s liking. If HTTP was functionally unusable in the application model provided by mobile operating systems, you bet people would complain! But HTTP is stateless. IRC isn't. As such, HTTP is not inherently incompatible with a qual…

You either have a problem or you don’t; since you complained, you do have a problem, and it absolutely is on you to fix.

The “basic human interaction” you are failing to understand here is that you’re refusing to accept your role in fixing your own issues. Nobody is obligated to help you, and it’s frankly insulting to presume someone else ought to do anything about your problem for you.

The open source community doesn’t owe you shit. Your entitled attitude is toxic.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#435

Post by ChainOfFools »

ginko wrote: post #8

> The reliability and lack of bloat that are inherent to IRC ultimately also means that there are a number of fancy modern features that Discord has that IRC lacks, a big one being the inability to view backlogs of conversations that transpired while one was not connected to an IRC server. Although IRC does not itself provide this functionality, the extremely simple nature of IRC allows for a couple of lightweight op…

Maybe my memory has decayed a little too much on this, but I thought this is was a solved problem in IRC a long time ago, with the Op running one of the numerous journaling bots available at the time that posted logs to a web page associated with the channel. I realize that bolting on a web server is going outside the IRC protocol itself, but does that matter in context?

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#436

Post by Dylan16807 »

Zetice wrote: post #433
Dylan16807 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not being obtuse. The biggest problem with discord bots is that you need a completely different kind of account to have a bot, and even worse that account can't join servers normally. You're not allowed to run a logger on your own personal account. Because of that, IRC gives better results in many scenarios. Discord is not equal or better in all cases. If I don't set up a special arrangement with the moderators o…

Just because you don’t know how to write a Discord bot doesn’t mean it’s meaningfully difficult due to it requiring a different account type, in fact that makes it easier in many respects. And in the case we’re discussing, you run the server and can freely allow whatever you want. Discord is superior or equal to IRC in every meaningful way here.

> Just because you don’t know how to write a Discord bot doesn’t mean it’s meaningfully difficult due to it requiring a different account type, in fact that makes it easier in many respects.

The difficult part isn't writing it. It's getting in a situation to use it.

> And in the case we’re discussing, you run the server and can freely allow whatever you want.

You seem confused. The very first complaint in the big post you responded to with "Literally all of your concerns are 100% solved by adding a log bot to the channels you care about" was this:

"1 - The logs aren't yours, they're Discord's. If you get banned from the server, your server shuts down, or Discord bans you altogether your access to those logs is gone forever."

It's not just about servers you're running. It's also any channel/message you join.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#437

Post by eropple »

Zetice wrote: post #434
eropple wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why bring up IRC’s lack of a “pleasant” app? Because...I was expressing why it isn't fit for purpose? > One doesn’t complain about http because the mobile browser options aren’t to one’s liking. If HTTP was functionally unusable in the application model provided by mobile operating systems, you bet people would complain! But HTTP is stateless. IRC isn't. As such, HTTP is not inherently incompatible with a qual…

You either have a problem or you don’t; since you complained, you do have a problem, and it absolutely is on you to fix. The “basic human interaction” you are failing to understand here is that you’re refusing to accept your role in fixing your own issues. Nobody is obligated to help you, and it’s frankly insulting to presume someone else ought to do anything about your problem for you. The open source community does…

I have participated in open-source communities for over a decade now. It is likely--not guaranteed, but pretty likely--that I have written more open-source code, both for money and not, than you have. And I am befuddled how you are so toweringly angry about something you're interpreting so directly backwards.

I am not saying that IRC has to change to suit me. I never said that. I am saying that IRC is unfit for my purposes. You, as somebody who is advocating for its use, are taking the latter and inferring the former when it was never implied. I don't care if IRC changes, because I have options that better suit me--the net result if nothing changes is that I continue to not use IRC.

And I'm fine with that! I'm not over here bemoaning it. There is no value to me unlocked by pulling up stakes from Slack and Discord and going to IRC that is being kept from me because of bad mobile experiences on IRC. My initial post, which has apparently spun you off to the moon for some reason, was pointing out that it remains unfit for my purposes, and that's why I don't use it. Nothing, and I mean literally, nothing else.

But you're the one pushing the thing.

If you (or other IRC advocates) want me to use it (for whatever reason, network effects usually chief among them), then perhaps you have a problem to solve pursuant to LOE and other needs and all that. That's not my problem, because I have a solution. Usage of your pursuant-to-network-effects protocol of choice is...your...problem. To borrow a phrase from elsewhere, you have product-market fit problems. And it's not other people's responsibility to make the thing you like fit them--they have other choices.

If you insist that don't care--well, to me that's also fine, but advocating for the use of something that is unfit-for-purpose and then having an extremely normal day of responses to mild feedback about why other people use alternatives instead is...I mean, if you want to talk about toxic, find a mirror. Your behavior in this thread is shameful.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#438

Post by TkTech »

pabs3 wrote: post #431
TkTech wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just started adding logs to notifico (ex: https://n.tkte.ch/c/1/2023-07-28 ), which is very barebones. Don't get much time to work on it, but I'm working on implementing search in a cost-effective manner. If the ~3000 IRC channels that use Notifico opt-in to logging they'll get it for free permanently, and I'll be offering nightly dumps to an SFTP server of your choice to make sure there's no lock-in. You're tot…

Is there a list of channels that notifico logs? Also your calendar widget links to dates with no logs.

Not yet! The logging functionality is an alpha with only a small number of participants.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#439

Post by Zetice »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #436
Zetice wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don’t know how to write a Discord bot doesn’t mean it’s meaningfully difficult due to it requiring a different account type, in fact that makes it easier in many respects. And in the case we’re discussing, you run the server and can freely allow whatever you want. Discord is superior or equal to IRC in every meaningful way here.

> Just because you don’t know how to write a Discord bot doesn’t mean it’s meaningfully difficult due to it requiring a different account type, in fact that makes it easier in many respects. The difficult part isn't writing it. It's getting in a situation to use it. > And in the case we’re discussing, you run the server and can freely allow whatever you want. You seem confused. The very first complaint in the big pos…

Sorry but you've completely lost the plot here. We're talking about using Discord vs using IRC as a means of capturing company documentation, and in this task Discord is superior in every meaningful way.

You could use a bot to push everything to a persistent, searchable location, and as a corporation this would be braindead easy. Obviously you wouldn't want to push private convos, so your continued reference to them isn't relevant at all, and your concerns about how "hard" it would be to add a bot to the server to do this is moot considering you control the server in question.

Why would you be banned from the server? Why would you ban yourself? Why would Discord ban you? Why and how would Discord banning you remove your ability to write a bot that pushes your content out to a storage place you control?

You keep trying to find a way to be right, but you keep stumbling.

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