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LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

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Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t observe a frequent knee jerk like anti-markets reaction from comments across HN? What are good examples of their “disbenefits”?

> What are good examples of their “disbenefits”? Overwhelmingly unaddressed externalities.

Prediction markets seem blessedly free of externalities though, compared to, say, the energy market (CO2) or textiles (child labor, sweatshops.)

except for incentivizing action to tilt the odds, which is weirdly amoral. if you bet on a bad thing happening, you can cash in by making it happen yourself.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#352
post #54

Saw some people hyping up markets where people are betting on prediction markets whether or not LK-99 will replicate. Can't help but feel like that money would be better spent just paying off some labs to actually try to replicate the process. The response I got from a predictions market enthusiast was that having a sufficiently large market would motivate people to attempt to have the process replicated and buy opti…

This type of instictive negative reaction to prediction markets is, unfortunately, common, but, I think, misguided. Prediction markets are one of the (or just, the?) best ways of aggregating knowledge from multiple sources and producing the best predictions. Having good legible predictions of impactful events such as LK-99 replication is extremely useful for society - it would be an invaluable input for a savvy polic…

> Having good legible predictions of impactful events such as LK-99 replication is extremely useful for society - it would be an invaluable input for a savvy policy maker for instance.

How?

Would it not be better for the "savvy" policy maker to JUST WAIT until this discovery is confirmed, definitively, by multiple legit research institutions? And even better, wait until it shows some promise of practical application? Policy, as we know it, almost never reacts within hours to anything, let alone a scientific discovery. What exactly can a policy maker even do with faster than hot-off-the-press knowledge about this stuff?

Prediction markets are really just for people that hustle in markets or who are looking for a news scoop. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, though some might argue it contributes to needless volatility.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#353
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the fact that everyone is trying to replicate the process rather than validate the existing material is very weird. Replication is hard, validation is much easier. If they've had this material for years, just send some off to a few labs... People claiming unusual abilities/etc usually focus on a very difficult ceremony/situation/feeling/process rather than the outcome. Ghosts, spiritual experiences, etc. really…

Why do you silently assume that samples aren't being shared around as we speak? CMTC of the University of Maryland stated that the authors are cooperating in regards to this https://twitter.com/condensed_the/status/1684960318718406656 There's value in both validating existing samples and producing new ones.

Oh that would be great! Sorry if my assumption is mistaken. I'd love this to be real! I'm not just thinking about this last week, though - if the LK group had these samples for multiple years, it seems like they would have been able to share & convince at least one PhD to support them publicly. The fact that they haven't just seems weird! Sure, they were preparing the papers, etc. etc but you do have to balance that against the life they would have if they just published asap - wealthy, famous, respected, free, as well as the benefits to the entire world of letting this be known.

Talk about a confusingly written tweet, though!

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's highly suspicious. I guess they're banking on nobody having an enriched uranium 235 plate at hand to verify what happens if you do this without any LK99...

For me, this, and the combination with the name ("Quantum Energy Research Center") is another push in the direction of ignoring everything named "quantum" too often quacksalver territory Is this really their channel? Why do they only have 1 video, 8 subscribers, and why is the video unlisted?

>ignoring everything named "quantum"

This heuristic is probably a good one for non-scientific stuff but I'm not sure how accurate it is when we're looking at a group researching quantum effects

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#355
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t observe a frequent knee jerk like anti-markets reaction from comments across HN? What are good examples of their “disbenefits”?

Vast topic. Markets definitely have their issues. Here are a few: * The most obvious one is the fact it's an overhead, it doesn't produce goods or services by itself. That's not a major issue, but for example in the US ~5% (~7M of ~150M) of the workforce is dedicated to this overhead. * It's prone to internal instabilities. Too often, the markets disconnect from the underlying economic reality, sometimes with only mi…

> Too often, the markets disconnect from the underlying economic reality, sometimes with only mild effects (for example, that time petroleum prices went negative)

I may have misunderstood the situation at the time or am now misremembering it but I thought:

Some crude futures were about to become deliverable, meaning people who had been speculating on the price and have no fundamental use for unrefined petroleum were going to receive it. Normally they sell the soon-delivering futures for some later-delivering futures and lose or make relatively small amounts of money in the difference.

But there was no one to sell to, because COVID had reduced processing capacity and demand for gasoline. So all these traders who had no use for crude were about to be stuck with it. It's a noxious, volatile, dangerous chemical that requires special handling.

As the date approached it became important to find somewhere to _put _ the stuff, so much so that traders were paying people to take it off their hands. Which seems like a very elegant mechanism?

Like, I don't want crude oil at my house. I'm not gonna worry much about the price to get it taken away, probably.

And at that moment the market was paying for someone to take the crude, meaning anyone who could bring additional storage or processing capacity online very quickly was delivering something valuable.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#356
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of instictive negative reaction to prediction markets is, unfortunately, common, but, I think, misguided. Prediction markets are one of the (or just, the?) best ways of aggregating knowledge from multiple sources and producing the best predictions. Having good legible predictions of impactful events such as LK-99 replication is extremely useful for society - it would be an invaluable input for a savvy polic…

What do these prediction markets produce ? Some people are saying "yes" and others are saying "no", and the answer is either "yes" or "no", but why bother spending money on predicting when society can spend money on replicating it? Wouldn't an actual replication attempt be more useful? > The latter is a perfectly reasonable thing to do - it's not easy for an average person to "pay off some lab", but if they provide l…

What do stock markets produce?

The way resources are allocated is very important, but getting it optimal is very hard. Stock market is one of structures which helps to create long-term incentives to optimize resource allocation.

You can directly see how it works if you compare market-based economies to e.g. a planned economy Soviet Union: a lot of goods produced by Soviet industry were not in demand, especially consumer goods. When Soviet Union was no more a lot of factories were closed because they were producing some utterly irrelevant shit.

> Is any of this liquidity going to actual (replication) research, because if it is not, again: what are these markets tangibly producing?

Many economic concepts work in practice only at scale. E.g. if there's a one-off $1000 incentive, it might not attract people capable of doing that. But if there's an opportunity to make $1000 every second, people might put an effort into taking that opportunity.

Prediction markets create incentives to do particular stuff, as all markets do.

If there was enough money at stake, it could definitely incentivize replication research.

There are two scenarios.

Scenario 1: Suppose you have a lab with all necessary equipment and materials. Normally you would use it for your own research (i.e. research new materials). But if there's e.g. $100M prediction market on replication of a particular result, you might consider redirecting it to replicating that research instead.

If you do it before others, you can sell your replication proof to a hedge fund which will then get a position on prediction market before revealing the proof.

Scenario 2: If there's enough money in replication markets, hedge funds might specifically fund laboratories which replicate stuff.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#357
post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you silently assume that samples aren't being shared around as we speak? CMTC of the University of Maryland stated that the authors are cooperating in regards to this https://twitter.com/condensed_the/status/1684960318718406656 There's value in both validating existing samples and producing new ones.

Oh that would be great! Sorry if my assumption is mistaken. I'd love this to be real! I'm not just thinking about this last week, though - if the LK group had these samples for multiple years, it seems like they would have been able to share & convince at least one PhD to support them publicly. The fact that they haven't just seems weird! Sure, they were preparing the papers, etc. etc but you do have to balance that…

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Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#358
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: nuclear weapon detonation, the implied probability of 9% (I take it source is: https://polymarket.com/event/will-a-nuclear-weapon-detonate-... ) might be factoring in the premium for the insurance that participants that predict a detonation are interested in acquiring. Let's say that the real odds of detonation are 1% and that everyone participating in the market knows and agrees to this. You would expect the imp…

"Will a nuclear weapon be detonated (including tests and accidents) in 2023?" is at 18% https://manifold.markets/ACXBot/8-will-a-nuclear-weapon-be-d... There are some caveats in the description, and this is play money, but people on the site do take their profits seriously.

It seems to be too thinly traded to read much into it? From what I can see a $100 bet would make the implied probability of detonation 93%.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#359

Whether or not this turns out to be real the whole incident has been extremely entertaining, way more than I would have expected. Replication attempts being documented in real time on Twitter and livestreamed on Twitch, news about infighting and drama among the researchers who published the paper, constant fluxations in the betting markets as new news comes out. It's been a wild ride.

I was in college (and a physics major!) when cold fusion hit. Really similar vibe -- competing press conferences and publications, huge public excitement tempered by frowning disbelief from experts, a rush to replicate from many labs, with only occasional claims of success, all of which turned out to be errors. Still, I'm rooting for you, LK-99.

Re: LK-99: The live online race for a room-temperature superconductor

#360
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of instictive negative reaction to prediction markets is, unfortunately, common, but, I think, misguided. Prediction markets are one of the (or just, the?) best ways of aggregating knowledge from multiple sources and producing the best predictions. Having good legible predictions of impactful events such as LK-99 replication is extremely useful for society - it would be an invaluable input for a savvy polic…

Absolutely and people might be interested that in this case the prediction market for LK-99 is reacting in real time to new tweets from people trying to replicate. The “yes” spike to 32c yesterday was in response to a twitter account posting an image of a levitating grain in a tube. The credibility of that replication attempt was then evaluated by many and the market backed off afterwards. There is always a subtle an…

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