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The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

mstdn.ca

401–410 of 511 posts

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#401

Similarly … The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. 400BC

What if people have always been complaining about this because it was always a problem that popped up and neede to be handled. Maybe any change in society meant parents can't use the same techniques to raise their children, and neede to evolve.

Overall, not sure how a complain popping up all the time means it's invalid. People have always complained about injustice, and it's not like that's ever gone away entirely.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#402
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theres another level to this going on in certain places too. Its not enough to have both partners working. Now in places like the bay area if you want to be competitive in the housing market, both partners have to be working high income jobs not just working at all. Even if you have a great title, if your partner doesnt, you will be lapped by people who have vastly more buying power than either of you can ever muster…

The best thing that most younger people in the Bay Area can do to improve their quality of life is to move somewhere else. Decades of bad government and an influx of grifters have eroded the advantages it once had. You might take a temporary income hit by leaving but most regular workers will end up better off in the long run. We can argue about what should be done to improve the situation in the Bay Area, but realis…

> makes things difficult

for who?

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to note that the good old days of a working man being able to support a family of five was only true for a brief period of history in a handful of elite countries. In most of the world, and for most of human history, it hasn't been the case that any single person working 40 hours a week could provide a luxurious lifestyle for a large family. While some lament the loss of this golden age their g…

It is funny, people somehow think that a momentary episode of utter economic dominance after all other economic powers had been bombed into dust should be the norm. And the 50s and 60s weren't that great for e.g. black people or women in the US either.

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Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post I am responding to mentioned providing a family of five with a self-owned house, a car, a couple of vacations per year and a comfortable retirement. To many people around the world - still today - that would be considered a luxurious lifestyle. You are right that it's possible for one person to support a family. For most people working in the tech industry here on HN they could probably figure out a way to d…

If it were so simple to achieve, we would not see child labor. You have it backwards. We wouldn't see any child labor if employers weren't trying to cut corners on wages while the people at the top of the economic pyramid rake in billions. Ownership is way overcompensated in this society, most owners/CEOs do not provide that much value and are just collecting economic rents because they occupy a position in social/ec…

Are you a CEO? If not when are you becoming a CEO to rake in billions then? It ought to be easy since they don’t do much according to you. They get compensated a lot because it is a lot of responsibility and stress.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction being drawn here is that there is a disconnect between hiring managers and workers. A hiring manager has an expectation that 200k will incentivize someone to work for 8 hours a day consistently and constantly where work is the point, not the tasks themselves. They expect the worker to figure out what additional tasks are to be done for that price and work at the upper limit of the time expecta…

This is on point for me. I don't come into work to "invent" my own work. Management is expected to know what workers should work on, make sure it has the right ROI for the company, and that the rewards of that work flow to the workers. At many FAANG-like companies, engineers are supposed to find "scope" themselves to keep their own job? Are you crazy? What the fuck is management doing in these companies?

I believe management has in many cases lost focus on strategy because they are either not driven as well since they also are not fully invested in the company’s overall vision or are so overwhelmed with meetings that they simply don’t have time to even understand what their subordinates actually do in technical terms, much less strategize.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re going to get a bunch of static because of the objectivist leanings of all the “temporarily impoverished tech billionaires” on HN and pg’s rare miss of an essay about the scarce reagents of the United States manufacturing economy during the Cold War. But you’re fundamentally right. It’s really easy to manipulate indices like the CPI (and oh boy do they have some interesting ideas about what people need in life)…

I'll bite: > The action item that falls out is the same in both cases: drive capture to keep the “right people” running things. This rings true, and seems an insightful point. But I lost the plot in the following: > The result is the same in both cases: if you do a halfway honest plot of productivity and genuine standard of living against the decades, you get divergent lines that seem to be training for an Olympic gy…

Yeah, that’s a fair point I suppose. It’s kind of a limitation of it bot being the aforementioned book someone needs to write.

Establishing the financial economics of productivity and its relationship to the Western Liberal Enlightenment conceptualization of the public good along a non-differentiable surface of capture from WWII to the present is a masters thesis alone.

The level of ambient violence in a surveillance kleptocracy with a nascent domestic security apparatus breaking through that of a country in the grips of a 7-sided civil war, this being the tip of the iceberg because the non-violent people with no hope are suiciding with fentanyl at some staggering multiple of that, and this being caused by capture is hard to prove but easy to see absent an agenda.

I don’t want to see a climax more intense than how far we’ve already traveled down that road.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will instead generally pursue arts/crafts (including the craft of building computer programs in areas they are interested in), learning, exercise etc. I always hear this argument about UBI and it almost sounds too good to be true. Like utopian. And I wonder what segment of population will actually become artists and craftsmen with renewed sense of purpose and fulfillment vs. the folks that will accelerate even…

Some might. Most would watch TV, hang out with friends/family, scroll TikTok, workout, and play videogames

They would rather gamble away all money or and use it on drugs.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#408
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly that's a valid criticism BUT I would point out the wealth distribution in our economy. If it was more equable would this luxurious lifestyle for all still be possible ?

Let’s take a look at income (not wealth) The US has a GDP per capita of $80K, so if it were distributed equally, everyone would “get” $80K. Since in reality the distribution is very skewed a lot of people would earn more. Of course, that’s if we artificially constrain this to the US. The world-wide GDP per capita is only $12K. So if we’d be really equitable with the whole world, we’d all have to make do with a lot le…

That is just math and does not account of what this would cause to the economy.

Is the same old discourse, if poor people get more money they will put it back in the economy and consume it generating a bigger economy and better life quality for everyone.

And gdp is kindaaaa useless as wealth pays an important role.

Economic inequality in income grew since the 80' and that's simply a fact

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#409
I often think about the stark difference in outcomes between American[0] and immigrant kids that I went to high school with, 20+ years post graduation.

A big differentiating factor is that the immigrant kids - I am sure with a lot of influence from their parents - were willing to take on just a bit more work than their American peers. Try for the harder classes, try for the more selective college, try for the more rigorous major, etc. Nothing seemingly extraordinary but just a series of choices, at each step being willing to put in a bit more work than one could superficially get away with.

Consequently, the immigrant kids "fell into" careers in law, medicine, engineering, etc. at much higher rates than our American friends and their lives resemble the classic American dream: good job, nice house, bunch of kids. To be fair, a bunch of the Americans I grew up with achieved the same thing - still impressive although they started with a ton of advantage over us immigrants. But the rate of immigrant kids' success dwarfed this.

In retrospect, the immigrant belief in the connection between input and output - and perhaps this being less clear to our American friends - made a tremendous amount of difference. Our American pals had the same opportunities and could even go after them much easier, but they just didn't have the same motivation to kick their own ass to launch themselves a few rungs higher.

The culture of cultivating talent and being willing to put in work was a "secret" weapon of these immigrant families, and itself was a cultural attribute of the countries we had come from. And of course it's also very much the historic American ethos although in 2023 it seems gauche to speak to the virtue of working harder - I am sure this post is going to be controversial, for example.

The inability of the culture to sing the virtues of work openly has got to be a net negative, at least for those who take it seriously. The more traditional families are still teaching these values to their kids behind closed doors. And I am pretty sure that while there has always been a large group of folks not interested in working and certainly not in excellence through work, I suspect this group has a greater share of the public "voice" than ever before.

There's a classic Futurama quote: "no one drove in NY, too much traffic" and I think of it often when someone says that you can't get ahead or afford a life nowadays. While that message is popular, it kinda misses the question of: who do you think is bidding up these houses? Why do you think there's a waiting list for the pre-schools? etc. Who do you think is buying these family sedans and minivans? People don't often talk about "actually, I worked hard and it paid off" but it's kinda all around us if you look.

To be fair, there's no guarantee of success in life. You can work your ass off and get nowhere, especially if you work on the wrong thing. But there's definitely a guarantee of failure if you don't work, and it's sad to see people locking themselves into that.

[0] when I say American, I mean kids of Italian, Irish, and black ancestry who were born in the US. The immigrant kids were Russians and Asians primarily.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were so simple to achieve, we would not see child labor. You have it backwards. We wouldn't see any child labor if employers weren't trying to cut corners on wages while the people at the top of the economic pyramid rake in billions. Ownership is way overcompensated in this society, most owners/CEOs do not provide that much value and are just collecting economic rents because they occupy a position in social/ec…

Are you a CEO? If not when are you becoming a CEO to rake in billions then? It ought to be easy since they don’t do much according to you. They get compensated a lot because it is a lot of responsibility and stress.

Why doesn't the prime minister of UK become the king of Britain, even though it's less work for way more luxury?

(In case you can't reason your way into it, some positions are gained through nonzero amount of luck rather than pure "hard work and grit" or whatever boomer nonsense.)

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