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Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

newsletter.mollywhite.net

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Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#91

Post by TechBro8615 »

panarky wrote: post #73
qingcharles wrote: post #21

This image (FTA) is straight out of some insane dystopian nightmare: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_pr... That the photo represents a real event in real reality is absurd o_O

If you think thousands of people voluntarily getting iris scans that aren't stored anywhere is an insane dystopian nightmare, wait until you hear about the 1.3 billion people who were compelled to surrender their biometrics to the centralized, government-operated Aadhaar system.

That sounds like an ideal implementation partner for Worldcoin!

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#92

Post by b1n »

lolinder wrote: post #9

> While Worldcoin may have developed an algorithm that reliably distinguishes unique irises among its test pool, it’s not clear that it will work with a pool orders of magnitude larger. This is a really key problem. The main application of biometrics today is in cell phones, and for those we operate on the assumption that we're trying to distinguish between the authorized user and a quite small pool of non-authorized…

This is assuming you are trying to create a perfect system. The "good enough" version of this solves most Sibil Attacks[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#93

Post by AlexandrB »

wmf wrote: post #65
lucasyvas wrote: post #15

It disappoints me to see anyone discussing this on technical merits when the whole thing is a laughably bad idea. It really just needs to be buried into the ground before it gets started.

The world would be significantly worse off if it just ran on your gut instincts. In the particular case of Worldcoin it's still bad once you understand the details but that's just luck.

I feel like the world would be better off if VC money was funneled into more local small businesses and "lifestyle" startups, not 100m+ "moonshots" like this. Unfortunately that doesn't "scale".

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#94

Post by happytiger »

konschubert wrote: post #5

I do not understand how this is supposed to prevent sibyl attacks? How do they prevent fake virtual iris scanning devices from pretending that they scanned a person that doesn’t actually exist? Or is the idea that sama is will run a centralised private identity system that aims to replace government identity management? Then why do you need crypto? Are they trying to replace proof of stake/proof of work with “proof o…

It’s a value of the database play and graph databases (association, social credit) gain most of their value (like social networks) from scale. You don’t have to have great data, but you need a LOT of data, for them to serve the purpose.

There is a lot of room for systems that are the silver standard and the math enables a great deal of reliability for those outside of the traditional financial systems (many people). It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough.

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#95

Post by hef19898 »

sirreal14 wrote: post #77
hef19898 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people take cyberpunk as entertainment, some as a paraody, some as a warning, some as all of the above. And some take it as blue print worth pursueing. EDIT: The while premise of needing a nin-centralized wax of confirming ones identity is, at its core, deeply un-demicratic. As of bow, government issued documentation confirms anyones identiy. These governments can be democratic, and are. Puting a different syste…

> The while premise of needing a nin-centralized wax of confirming ones identity is, at its core, deeply un-demicratic. As of bow, government issued documentation confirms anyones identiy. These governments can be democratic, and are. Puting a different system in place, controlled by some tech-billionaire-liberitarian, is as dytopian as it gets. I deeply hate this line of logic. This exact argument was presented agai…

I am all for privacy and encrypted communications. Until a legitimate law enforcent body gets a legitimate warrant against a specified organisation or individual.

Outsourcing some, or all of that to some VC backed companies, facilitating access for the various intelligence agencies, is what I have a problem with. And a crypto start-up setting out to build a global database of peoples retinas is exactly that.

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#96

Post by panarky »

_9omd wrote: post #84
panarky wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sweet sweet VC money Sure, yeah, maybe that's all it is, a scam that's totally transparent and obvious to every random internet commenter but totally non-obvious to the simple and gullible marks on Sand Hill Road. Or maybe, just possibly, there might be more to it. Perhaps it takes a little more effort to understand than just piling on to the reflexive groupthink cynicism which passes for conventional wisdom around…

I’m not saying it’s a scam, just that it seems their system isn’t really Sybil resistant due to the issue of account selling. And if that’s the case they either didn’t think this would be an issue, or they expected it but don’t really care, and the claim of Sybil resistance is just marketing. Is this wrong in some way you’d like to explain?

I can't explain anything about this project because I haven't invested the effort to understand it.

Maybe I'll spend the 20 minutes to read the 5000 words in Molly White's article, and then another couple hours to read the whitepaper, then another who knows how many hours researching the claims and counterclaims to make my own judgment.

But probably I'll never do any of those things, and I'll still have high confidence that the project probably isn't simply a scam for sweet, sweet VC money, or unimaginably naive, or full of fatal flaws that every rando can identify instantly.

Because in the past, when anonymous internet commenters are of one mind that a new thing is a scam or fatally flawed, while the team behind the new thing are highly capable, with good reputations for not being scammers or unimaginably naive, usually the anonymous internet commenters don't understand what's really happening.

And then I'll ctrl-f the whitepaper to search for 'sybil' and discover that the arguments in this thread are already discussed in the whitepaper, which gives me even more confidence that the hivemind conclusions of scamminess or naivete are most likely uninformed.

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#97

Post by [deleted] »

hef19898 wrote: post #95
sirreal14 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The while premise of needing a nin-centralized wax of confirming ones identity is, at its core, deeply un-demicratic. As of bow, government issued documentation confirms anyones identiy. These governments can be democratic, and are. Puting a different system in place, controlled by some tech-billionaire-liberitarian, is as dytopian as it gets. I deeply hate this line of logic. This exact argument was presented agai…

I am all for privacy and encrypted communications. Until a legitimate law enforcent body gets a legitimate warrant against a specified organisation or individual. Outsourcing some, or all of that to some VC backed companies, facilitating access for the various intelligence agencies, is what I have a problem with. And a crypto start-up setting out to build a global database of peoples retinas is exactly that.

[deleted]

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#98

Post by rvz »

malermeister wrote: post #57
rvz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not ‘All’. Just like 90% of startups fail, it is the same with 90% of crypto startups, and AI startups will fail. The 10% remaining will continue to exist. Just stop this absolutist nonsense.

Can you name a concrete counterexample of a crypto venture that provides actual value to society?

Yes. Moneygram, Circle and Stellar launched and aid program (Stellar Aid) that allows near instant, very low-fee and cross-border P2P payments worldwide to those in need of it. [0]

[0] https://thefintechtimes.com/stellar-aid-assist-creates-new-r...

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#99

Post by sirreal14 »

hef19898 wrote: post #95
sirreal14 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The while premise of needing a nin-centralized wax of confirming ones identity is, at its core, deeply un-demicratic. As of bow, government issued documentation confirms anyones identiy. These governments can be democratic, and are. Puting a different system in place, controlled by some tech-billionaire-liberitarian, is as dytopian as it gets. I deeply hate this line of logic. This exact argument was presented agai…

I am all for privacy and encrypted communications. Until a legitimate law enforcent body gets a legitimate warrant against a specified organisation or individual. Outsourcing some, or all of that to some VC backed companies, facilitating access for the various intelligence agencies, is what I have a problem with. And a crypto start-up setting out to build a global database of peoples retinas is exactly that.

> I am all for privacy and encrypted communications. Until a legitimate law enforcement....

So you're against encryption then. Simple as that.

> Outsourcing some, or all of that to some VC backed companies, facilitating access for the various intelligence agencies, is what I have a problem with.

I also have a problem with that. We should aim to build systems that are resistant to all attackers, even intelligence agencies. And like Signal, it should be impossible for companies to facilitate access for anyone, including intelligence/law enforcement.

> And a crypto start-up setting out to build a global database of peoples retinas

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with real criticisms of WorldCoin (Vitalik has a nice critique here: https://vitalik.ca/general/2023/07/24/biometric.html), because they don't store biometric data, they only store hashes.

What's the worry here? If WorldCoin surpasses their wildly ambitious long term goals, governments won't be able to revoke someones passport for being a dissident anymore? What specific issues do you see with a successful decentralized proof of personhood system?

EDIT: Specifically, what issues does _decentralization_ bring to proof-of-personhood over government run proof of personhood, other than removing the government's ability to un-person someone.

Re: Worldcoin: A solution in search of its problem

#100

Post by optimalsolver »

latchkey wrote: post #64
optimalsolver wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/openais-sam-altman-launch...

And? I was talking to the op about their story... don't need a link to a worldcoin announcement, thanks.

This is an article about Worlcoin, Sam Altman's pet project, and OP is sharing an anecdote about Sam Altman. Not sure why you find this so confusing, but I'll be happy to walk you through it slowly.
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