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New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

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Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hittite is also interesting because it provided one of the biggest validations of the methodology for reconstructing languages. Based on subtle patterns in vowels in other Indo-European languages, Saussure was able to figure out that there must have been three “laryngeal” consonants in Proto-Indo-European which were lost in all the attested languages. And lo and behold, when Hittite was deciphered, there were the lar…

How can you determine that a consonant was "laryngeal" (voiced?) from text?

Laryngeal refers to the place of articulation (where the air stream is constricted). They are pronounced way in the back of the throat, like the glottal stop. Even further back than things like Greek chi or German ch.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#82

Fun facts, the oldest attestation of Indo-European language is now the long extinct language Hittite. The language is attested in cuneiform, in records dating from the 17th to the 13th centuries BCE. Hittite people created an empire centred on Hattusa, and also around northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia [1]. [1]Hittite language: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language

For anything languages, writing systems, abjads, scripts and so on I like https://omniglot.com/ it's a great site very detailed.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hittite is also interesting because it provided one of the biggest validations of the methodology for reconstructing languages. Based on subtle patterns in vowels in other Indo-European languages, Saussure was able to figure out that there must have been three “laryngeal” consonants in Proto-Indo-European which were lost in all the attested languages. And lo and behold, when Hittite was deciphered, there were the lar…

How can you determine that a consonant was "laryngeal" (voiced?) from text?

The laryngeal consonants were guttural sounds produced in the back of the throat, like English h, German ch, Arabic `ayn or qaf, etc. We don't know exactly what the pronunciations were, but in other existing languages, laryngeal sounds like this tend to have an effect on the surrounding vowels. This happens because your tongue has to movie continuously between the sounds it produces, and so there's some blurring that happens between adjacent sounds.

In particular, laryngeal sounds tend to make vowels near them become more back, low, and round. So for example before a uvular q sound in Arabic, the sound /a/ which is usually something like English a in cat will become back and low, something more like au in caught. You can get a process like this, playing out over hundreds of years:

1. You start with a form like Hewis, where H is some laryngeal sound.

2. The laryngeal sound makes the following vowel low and back, yielding Hawis.

3. The laryngeal sound drops, leaving just awis.

In fact this is how we get the Indo-European root for "sheep" (reflected in English ewe, Latin ovis, etc.). The Hittite form is hawis.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#84
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is well known that Sapiens arrived in Spain 40k years ago and that they demonstrated modern behavior: arts, music, advanced hunting tools Anyone to whom this is complete news? How did they manage this all without wheels?

> How did they manage this all without wheels? Walking, and at least for the people in North America probably canoes.

"Modern behavior", not getting places...

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trade, war/political power, cultural exchange etc also move languages around This was much less common in the pre-modern era. One of the largest learnings of the latter 20th century in this field is that when language and culture are moving, it typically means a previous population was displaced, not merely that the same people adopted a new culture.

Can you clarify a bit more about who did this learning? This statement is profoundly at odds with what I understand as an archaeologist. To give one example, Kohler's Sprachbund paper [1] gives a modern-ish proposal about linguistic convergence/diffusion that largely avoids demographic replacement. Are you talking about discontinuities , which is a related (but critically different) term that's often used in the lite…

Sure - and of course let me preface this by saying I am not an archaeologist, merely someone who is interested.

My comment was perhaps overgeneralizing specifically from the early neolithic transition in Europe more broadly than I should have been. One example of the work I am discussing is the work of Cavalli-Sforza (ie https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.94.15.7719). My understanding of the history of academic work on this subject was the prior to the 1970s or 80s or so, it was largely thought the spread of agriculture did not imply genetic population replacement and subsequent genetic research has since proven that is false.

I don't think the article you've linked actually disagrees with me. Excerpting briefly

> Essentially, in the Pueblo Southwest, language became partially decoupled from genes and culture, probably because language is a stronger convention (Young 1966) than are the other two, and can therefore better withstand the blending forces discussed below. A second force for creating zones of cultural similarity, more applicable to the case of phylogenetically distinct groups considered here, is through mixture of groups via movement of people (“demic” diffusion) that also entrained sharing of culture. To the extent that this describes the Pueblo case, once again, such mixing could not to have been so extreme as to undermine the linguistic differences that still survive. Recent research (e.g., Kandler 2009) provides some guidance as to the factors determining which language will prevail when linguistically different groups come into contact. The relative sizes of the populations, their relative status, and the duration of the flow are all relevant. To the extent that emigrating populations were relatively low in status, small in number, and arriving sporadically, it is more likely that they would adopt, rather than displace, the language of any group they were entering. Of course cultural similarities among groups can also emerge without population movement by copying neighboring groups, a process that anthropologists once simply called diffusion (e.g., Sahlins 1960). In the terms used by Collard et al. (2006), both movement of people among groups and this horizontal cultural transmission among groups are blending processes, as opposed to the branching processes discussed in the previous paragraph.

To me, this article seems to be attempting to explain the cultural similarity between (at least originally) disparate linguistic Pueblo groups (that largely, afaict from the article, share common genetics). In the paragraph above, you can see that the author is describing population migration and displacement as one of the key ways for cultural/linguistic transfer (especially when the populations moving are large) that 'can also' emerge without displacement, but I understand the article to be describing this as a minoritarian current - an exception to the broader pattern of pre-modern linguistic & cultural spread through displacement.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#86

As an Armenian speaker i was pretty surprised at this part > Recent ancient DNA data suggest that the Anatolian branch of Indo-European did not emerge from the Steppe, but from further south, in or near the northern arc of the Fertile Crescent — as the earliest source of the Indo-European family. Our language family tree topology, and our lineage split dates, point to other early branches that may also have spread di…

Why did that surprise you, as an Armenian speaker?

>...may also have spread directly from there, not through the Steppe.

My guess is they assumed it came through the steppe i.e. from the north, not their region the south/Caucasus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only substantive objection I see there is archeological-linguistic. Words related to chariot technology like “wheel” and “yoke” are cognate across IE languages, so the languages probably split after this technology was invented. But the invention seems to have happened later than 8000 BP.

Can we say something about how often a particular technological adaptation is accompanied by an adoption of the corresponding verbal expression? In other words: If the wheel has been adopted by a neighbouring community, is it not very likely that the word for it will be adopted in a linguistically similar version? As an aside: I looked for the origine of the English "wheel" and the German "Rad", and they seem to have…

> Could these words not have been derived somewhat later independently

That would require that the independent languages maintained the exact same derivational process of reduplication + zero-grade ablaut in the root. We know from the attested history of IE language that derivational processes last only for a while before they die out. That independent languages maintained that particular derivational process (which is inseparable from historical-phonological developments, too) for thousands and thousands of years, is extremely unlikely, which is just one of the many pieces of evidence against the Anatolian hypothesis.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only substantive objection I see there is archeological-linguistic. Words related to chariot technology like “wheel” and “yoke” are cognate across IE languages, so the languages probably split after this technology was invented. But the invention seems to have happened later than 8000 BP.

Can we say something about how often a particular technological adaptation is accompanied by an adoption of the corresponding verbal expression? In other words: If the wheel has been adopted by a neighbouring community, is it not very likely that the word for it will be adopted in a linguistically similar version? As an aside: I looked for the origine of the English "wheel" and the German "Rad", and they seem to have…

Roots undergo semantic shifts in their meaning. So English "deer" is cognate to German "Tier" despite the fact that Tier means animal in German, but only one specific kind of animal in English. The German meaning is the original one for the root; in English it shifted to the more specific meaning.

In German, "Rad" was originally a word that meant something like "rolling" and it generalized in meaning to encompass what was originally referred to using the cognate of English wheel, which then died out in German. It would have been something like *Wiel (Dutch still retains "wiel").

The evidence for a shared root for wheel goes much much farther back than the split between English and German. The Proto-Indo-Euopean root was something like *kwekwlos, which gives Germanic *hwel (> English wheel), Greek kyklos/cycle, Sanskrit cakra, all according to regular sound changes. So it goes back all the way to the split between these languages.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#89

As an Armenian speaker i was pretty surprised at this part > Recent ancient DNA data suggest that the Anatolian branch of Indo-European did not emerge from the Steppe, but from further south, in or near the northern arc of the Fertile Crescent — as the earliest source of the Indo-European family. Our language family tree topology, and our lineage split dates, point to other early branches that may also have spread di…

Worth pointing out that Armenian is not a descendent of the Anatolian branch (if you didn't know that already). The whole Anatolian tree of Indo-European (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, etc.) is extinct; the languages there were displaced completely in the late Bronze age and early Iron Age.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you determine that a consonant was "laryngeal" (voiced?) from text?

The laryngeal consonants were guttural sounds produced in the back of the throat, like English h, German ch, Arabic `ayn or qaf, etc. We don't know exactly what the pronunciations were, but in other existing languages, laryngeal sounds like this tend to have an effect on the surrounding vowels. This happens because your tongue has to movie continuously between the sounds it produces, and so there's some blurring that…

Nice, sheep in Lithuanian is “avis” (https://lt.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/avis) what I assume sounds like “hawis”
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