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The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

mstdn.ca

301–310 of 511 posts

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#301

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

You’re going to get a bunch of static because of the objectivist leanings of all the “temporarily impoverished tech billionaires” on HN and pg’s rare miss of an essay about the scarce reagents of the United States manufacturing economy during the Cold War.

But you’re fundamentally right. It’s really easy to manipulate indices like the CPI (and oh boy do they have some interesting ideas about what people need in life), and it’s really easy to exploit summary statistics like the arithmetic mean to drag “average standard of living” metrics around with a few categories of goods (mostly consumer electronics) to push the absurd notion that anyone outside the investor class is doing as well as they were 10, 20, 30, 40, … years ago.

The United States burns 45% of its corn and smaller but still ridiculous percentages of its other big agricultural outputs as ethanol at a net disaster on carbon emissions. We let poor and homeless people interact with courts and ERs in vast numbers who need housing assistance, basic medical care, and sometimes substance abuse treatment at (people debate this exact number) somewhere in the hand-wave 10-100x range of a markup. Cops and judges and the amortized cost of lawsuits against police departments and ER doctors and ER nurses and ER equipment have a cost structure closer to a military than cheap, tax-subsidized housing and registered nurses.

The United States has absurd surpluses of arable land, exploitable energy, deep-water harbor capacity, riverine transport capacity, exploitable mineral resources, highly desirable and massively under exploited coastal real estate, you name it, it’s easier to list things that are in any way intrinsically scarce here…Coltan maybe?

The United States is in a position unique in history in which its sovereign debt is denominated in its own currency and that currency is the world’s reserve currency and that sovereign debt is the “risk-free return” r-nought embraced by modern global finance. This means that we can tailor the money supply exactly to the level of productivity that it’s used to represent, which means that being a politician or economic regulator is as easy of a job (if your goal is the public welfare) as it definitionally can be.

The United States is basically the only developed nation with no intrinsic demographic challenges (the ones that are ravaging all the other developed nations) because there is a seeming boundless supply of (statistically) young, law-abiding, productive people who still have kids wanting to immigrate here across a porous land border.

Scarcity or want of really any kind is a very, very, very expensive “luxury” (it’s not quite a Veblen good but it’s certainly conspicuous consumption) that we as a society seem prepared to spend whatever it takes to get.

Once you strip the paint jobs off of either Foucault-style postmodernism or Randian objectivism (a challenge that Noam Chomsky describes as a real feat of linguistic manipulation) you’re left with effectively the same actionable value system of there being 2 kinds of people in this world: for the lefty kleptocrats the individual is robbed of agency and identity because they are the product of constructed forces external to them (I mean, except for us of course), for the righty kleptocrats the individual is robbed of agency and identity because they aren’t smart or motivated enough to invent Reardon Metal and therefore insignificant (I mean, except for us, of course).

The action item that falls out is the same in both cases: drive capture to keep the “right people” running things.

The result is the same in both cases: if you do a halfway honest plot of productivity and genuine standard of living against the decades, you get divergent lines that seem to be training for an Olympic gymnastics qualification.

The most dangerous man in the world isn’t a Navy SEAL or a Zeta, the most dangerous man in the world is a man with nothing to lose, which is why we’re up to 4 mass shootings a day (by Mother Jones’s definition but pick one), which is per-capita more than Syria.

This little brochure is a bit hand-wavy on the math and takes a bit of poetic license, it’s not meant to be the book that someone needs to write about this. So it’ll be a trivial exercise to pick it apart in that god-awful “>”-prefixed bad-faith style, but it’s not going to be a fundamental intellectual or epistemological or ethical error that’s going to motivate people to do so, it’s that this is not a comfortable thing to see in the mirror.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#302
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a similar vein, this poem by Pedro Pietri: Telephone Booth (number 905 1/2) woke up this morning feeling excellent, picked up the telephone dialed the number of my equal opportunity employer to inform him I will not be into work today Are you feeling sick? the boss asked me No Sir I replied: I am feeling too good to report to work today, if I feel sick tomorrow I will come in early

My company would call that taking a mental health day, which is considered a legitimate reason for not coming into work.

I had a coworker who would say that they were having eye problems -- as in "I just can see coming in today".

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>plus save enough to retire comfortably Individual saving for retirement was cooked up in the 80s. You used to get your pension and be set.

If you were lucky. Many did not get a pension at all though. And many others had a pension that went bankrupt so they go nothing. The 1980s (starting before then) were reforms on a system that wasn't working well for many.

Time will tell whether the individual solution works better. I suspect 401k saving will not provide many people a stable retirement.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#304

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

>>a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably.

I would say my family history is that of a "working man" that closly fits that narraive..

My grandfather was a WWII vet, after military service was a factory worker that raised 4 kids, in their own home.

Let me eliminate some of that illusory rose tint from your worldview. That home with 2 adults and 4 kids was a 950 square foot 1 bathroom box on .25 acres of land, with no garage, basement, or luxury of any type. my family still owns this property.

In comparison me a single man, lives in a 1300 sqft home.. by myself, with 2 car garage, full basement, etc. My home is considered "basic" by modern standards, some would even consider it below minimum standards for a family of 4...(I bought this home from such a family because they felt it was too small for them)

No builder would ever consider building either my home (which was built in the 60's, nor my grandparents home (built in the early 50's) as today home sizes need to be 1500-2000 square foot, each bedroom needs it own bath, kitchens need to be near professional quality, etc etc etc etc etc.

In short home prices are sky high because buyers would never consider, and probally could not legally, raise 4 kids in a 1 bath 950 sqaure foot home.

We often to not actualy compare apples to apple when we look at the conditions of the past. Sure a man could buy a home for his family in 1950... That home was about 1/2 the size of todays home, and had FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less amenities and comforts of the modern home

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#305

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

>>a working man could support a family of five, buy a house, a car and afford vacation once or twice a year, plus save enough to retire comfortably. I would say my family history is that of a "working man" that closly fits that narraive.. My grandfather was a WWII vet, after military service was a factory worker that raised 4 kids, in their own home. Let me eliminate some of that illusory rose tint from your worldvie…

Obviously this depends entirely on the country and region.

My grandfather immigrated to Australia in 1948, got a job assembling cars at the Ford plant, and worked there until he retired.

My Grandmother never worked. They bought a very nice house, had two boys, never really had any debt, plenty of money in retirement.

A generation later my Dad was earning $10k/year as a teacher, and my mum and dad bought their first very nice home for $30k.

So today how many people earning $100k/year can buy a home for $300k?

(As reference, my partner earns $78k/year and bought a modest home for $480k the month before covid. Now there is not a single home in this small town for less than $600k.)

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Someone who understood basic economics wouldn't assert that investors are ruining the housing market for individual family buyers without explaining how the housing market or one particular housing market is different from all the other markets were investors are helpful for bringing products and services to individuals and families. So the housing market is different because housing serves as shelter. Investors own…

I'd argue that housing's being a necessity makes it even more important for there to be a reliable and predictable supply--something investors help with, IMO, except for unusual pathological cases. Chinese home buyers IIRC have a cultural aversion to having strangers living in any home they might want to live in themselves in the future. But with the except of the Chinese investors (which IMO cannot be numerous enoug…

Those investors could move to starting or investing in companies that produce housing and material for them, but get out of owning houses themselves. This keeps them close to the market they want to invest in.

A common sentiment is that wages haven't kept up relative to costs of living, so we have problems now that need to be solved because we are already 'behind'. If that's true, it will further mean that families in the future will have less equity due to delays in purchasing a home relative to previous generations who could more easily afford necessities and luxuries.

So ideally we should give a break to home buyers now to help compensate for that at the expense of larger investors and organizations who can frankly afford the loss (collectively). The alternative is to keep investors happy and rich with profits at the expense of the population's needs and financial trajectory.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to note that the good old days of a working man being able to support a family of five was only true for a brief period of history in a handful of elite countries. In most of the world, and for most of human history, it hasn't been the case that any single person working 40 hours a week could provide a luxurious lifestyle for a large family. While some lament the loss of this golden age their g…

It is funny, people somehow think that a momentary episode of utter economic dominance after all other economic powers had been bombed into dust should be the norm. And the 50s and 60s weren't that great for e.g. black people or women in the US either.

Gimme a good argument why good conditions should diminish, or deteriorate, despite the fact that workforce productivity, as well as corporate margins, have been growing steadily ever since.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#308
post #118

My theory is that this is all true, and it’s fantastic. Generally, over the last century, in year X, nobody wants to work anymore compared to year Y (Y This is a success of social democracy and it is a success of technology. We can afford to have people work less hard and still be richer than we ever were. It’s the success story of western progress and the rest of the world is going through the same steps as we speak…

Correction: It's the success story of western progress at the expense of the rest of the world, which must find its own way because we've ripped up the steps.

FWIW, we haven't just ripped up the steps, we're actively standing at the top pointing a gun down.

Do you know why Switzerland exports the 2nd most processed coffee of any country in the world [1] while Ethiopia (where coffee was "invented" remains extremely poor, only exporting raw beans? Because the IMF and World Bank would send them back to the dark ages if they attempted to do anything different.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1096413/main-export-coun...

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#309
We will see what statistics say and what the trend will be in a few years, but if labor goes up for the same output then mathematically productivity has to go down, which has a variety of consequences, but I can think of 1) less capital market yields; 2) less tax income from governments. Both 1 and 2 have nasty impacts on pensions. I am not saying one way of thinking is better, I am just pointing out the obvious fact that there is no free lunch. Workers might get a better deal now, to be handed a bad one when they retire. Unless technology comes to the rescue and helps us keep increasing productivity, but it’s not realistic to rely only on tech.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#310
post #100

The easiest way for leaders to mitigate the problem of 'not wanting to work' is to make work a more desirable place to be. It's not even hard to do. Some simple rules for managers and leaders: 1. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Remember all the shitty bosses you had, and be the first to break the cycle. 2. Pay people slightly above market rate. Make that your #1 hiring message: "We pay above market rate" and…

I disagree on #2. I think if you want to build culture you need to find people who value culture over money, and that if you don't live up to your end they can complain about the deal. If you over pay and offer better culture when the culture inevitably falters people are stuck because you over pay.

What does "value culture over money even mean?" I'd rather get paid more and work with people who are clock punching professionals than somewhere where "we're all a family".
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