The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#251

Post by pstuart » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:38 PM UTC

syockit wrote: post #159

pstuart wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was the influx of new money printed, which we've done in the form of Quantitative Easing, multiple bail outs, etc.

You print more money because you have to give out more money, whether if it's in the form of handouts or in the form of extra wages.

Employers aren't printing up more money. Yes, labor costs going up impact profits but what about labor costs of management? That has gone up significantly:

"From 1978 to 2021, CEO pay based on realized compensation grew by 1,460%, far outstripping S&P stock market growth (1,063%) and top 0.1% earnings growth (which was 385% between 1978 and 2020, according to the latest data available). In contrast, compensation of the typical worker grew by just 18.1% from 1978 to 2021"

Source: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2021/#:~:text=Fro....

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#252

Post by itsboring » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:39 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #245

cognivore wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this too, and not just post-COVID. 10+ years ago we used to have "Let's Learn This Now!" where the developers would agree on particular subject and then learn and discuss it on our own time, and occasionally it would lead to improvements in our development. We went through Ruby (on Rails), Angular (nope, not even) to React (meh), queuing (ZeroMQ mostly), Asp.NET MVC, Redis, Docker, Octo, NoSQL dbs - the list go…

There was a lot more interesting work 10+ years ago. All the interesting bits have been commoditized.

I hate to say it, but I think we (as in, developers) did this to ourselves, or we were at least complicit. People like to think that these massive piles of abstractions we’ve built are for the benefit of future developers, but I’m starting to look at the software landscape more like a landfill with layer upon layer of waste output.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#253

Post by stevezsa8 » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:41 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #193

lokar wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think piketty would disagree. Productivity per worker has gone up but the share of profits going to workers has gone down. This is not some kind of inflation driven by scarcity.

The ultra wealthy hired the best to win a game of financial manipulation that the rest of us didn’t even know was being played. The median salary would be six figure if the share of productivity gains was distributed like it was in 1970.

I think focussing on salary alone isn't a great strategy.

If you doubled everyone's salary, the gain would almost certainly be absorbed by real estate or some other necessity.

Regulations on maximum working hours, access to fair housing, education, healthcare etc might work better.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#254

Post by kaashif » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #205

usrbinbash wrote: post #53

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

I think it's important to note that the good old days of a working man being able to support a family of five was only true for a brief period of history in a handful of elite countries. In most of the world, and for most of human history, it hasn't been the case that any single person working 40 hours a week could provide a luxurious lifestyle for a large family. While some lament the loss of this golden age their g…

It is funny, people somehow think that a momentary episode of utter economic dominance after all other economic powers had been bombed into dust should be the norm.

And the 50s and 60s weren't that great for e.g. black people or women in the US either.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#255

Post by dclowd9901 » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:42 PM UTC

pmulard wrote: post #213

dclowd9901 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone isn’t successful in making money on that work, though, it means it isn’t very good. I know it’s not a 1:1 result, but in reality, if you put in the hours and you make things people want, you will be successful. The problem is everyone who works on something they’re passionate about (even if they suck at it) thinks they ought to be compensated, even if their contributions amount to exactly Jack shit. Meanwh…

I disagree with your premise - just because someone doesn’t make money on their work doesn’t mean it’s not good. We live in a capitalistic society, where the laws of supply and demand rule. You’re able to make good money in carpentry by simply showing up, because there aren’t many carpenters left. Just like my cousin is able to do the same with landscaping. It’s all work fewer people are doing. Other friends of mine,…

But you see, you’re kind of making my point for me. Being good isn’t the same as being good enough. And this is only a problem if every industry is saturated with people who are good enough.

This isn’t the case, and if I’m not good enough at playing guitar to make a living at it, I go elsewhere. I don’t ask the world to make me a spot.

We need more carpenters and plumbers and a whole host of other industries. It feels very strange to me that people look at the world and say “it’s so unfair that society doesn’t value the thing that I do that isn’t particularly unique or contributive.” Why should that ever be the case?

Even in some perfect utopian society where everyone gets everything for free, am I supposed to read some mediocre book just because the person who made it wishes they were important? Even in such a society, people would still want notoriety, but they wouldn’t get it because they’re not good enough. For this reason I don’t see capitalism as the problem, I see them as the problem.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#256

Post by anigbrowl » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:44 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #242

muro wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First it was "support a family of five", then "luxurious lifestyle" then "humble lifestyle". Except for the "luxurious" one, it was possible pretty much at any time in human history, including now.

The post I am responding to mentioned providing a family of five with a self-owned house, a car, a couple of vacations per year and a comfortable retirement. To many people around the world - still today - that would be considered a luxurious lifestyle. You are right that it's possible for one person to support a family. For most people working in the tech industry here on HN they could probably figure out a way to d…

If it were so simple to achieve, we would not see child labor.

You have it backwards. We wouldn't see any child labor if employers weren't trying to cut corners on wages while the people at the top of the economic pyramid rake in billions. Ownership is way overcompensated in this society, most owners/CEOs do not provide that much value and are just collecting economic rents because they occupy a position in social/economic networks with high bridging centrality coefficients. It may involve some work to get there, but culture, luck, and marketing also have a lot to do with it too.

https://cse.buffalo.edu/tech-reports/2006-05.pdf

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#257

Post by coldtea » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:45 PM UTC

One problem with such disprovings is that they don't get into the actual case of what's happening, just stay on what people say.

People could say the same thing for 200 years, but they might not say it at the same numbers or with the same intensity over those 200 years - and of course even if those were stable, the thing might or might not be actually happening during some of those years.

As an example (not making a X-to-Nazi comparison, so Godwin has no power here): People have been complaining about fascism from 1920 all the way to 2023. But there are still periods with hugely more actual fascism, say 1993-1945.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#258

Post by nradov » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:46 PM UTC

usrbinbash wrote: post #53

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

Here's some perspective. In lower cost areas of the country it's still totally possible for a single worker to support a family of five, buy a house, a car, and afford a vacation. But in that idealized version of the past that you're describing the normal standards of living were much lower. The typical worker's house was small with everyone sharing one bathroom. The car was unreliable and dangerous. The vacation was a road trip to go camping. Now it seems everyone's expectations have risen.

I do agree that demographic changes are going to cause economic problems. That is basically unavoidable now.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#259

Post by HDThoreaun » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

goda90 wrote: post #47

justin_oaks wrote: post #6

To be honest, people generally don't want to work. In what way is this surprising?

I think people do want to work when they can enjoy and feel pride for the fruits of their labor. But often the fruits of labor in our economic system either don't pay the bills, aren't worthy of pride, or are almost entirely enjoyed by someone else in exchange for a small wage.

I think most jobs just aren’t the sort that elicit pride in their worker. They still need to be done though.

Re: The Long History of Nobody Wants to Work Anymore

#260

Post by throwaway33381 » Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

usrbinbash wrote: post #53

It's pretty simple really. If the reward from working is barely enough to cover the necessities, then there is technically no difference between working as a free citizen, and being forced to work as an indentured servant, other than a vague notion of freedom, which in that case is the freedom to decide between working and living on the streets. And people don't like being indentured servants. History should have mad…

For most jobs real wages haven't gone up at all adjusted with inflation. Others have mostly gone down in wages, most specifically service type jobs which are critical for basic needs. When you can't afford to live why bother?