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IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

koshka.love

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Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#281

Post by gonehome »

pmoriarty wrote: post #46
ginko wrote: post #8

> The reliability and lack of bloat that are inherent to IRC ultimately also means that there are a number of fancy modern features that Discord has that IRC lacks, a big one being the inability to view backlogs of conversations that transpired while one was not connected to an IRC server. Although IRC does not itself provide this functionality, the extremely simple nature of IRC allows for a couple of lightweight op…

Discord has shitty logging and log-search capabilities. Discord's logging is shitty because: 1 - The logs aren't yours, they're Discord's. If you get banned from the server, your server shuts down, or Discord bans you altogether your access to those logs is gone forever. 2 - Unlike the logs of some IRC channels, Discord's logs aren't available on the web anywhere, so they can't be indexed or searched outside of Disco…

Urbit's current chat implementation solves a lot of these issues and there's a clear path to things like search getting way better since all your chat data is stored on your local urbit.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#282

Post by rcxdude »

magsarion wrote: post #255
rcxdude wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand the threat model of OP: it's not a case of "general internet port scanner getting into my network" it's a case of "guy I've pissed off in this video game DDossing my residential internet connection or using that information to dox me". For the latter no level of security on my own network is going to prevent the bad outcome, but effectively having a proxy through a 3rd party does (and discord doe…

The "threat model" of OP is the consequence of a wrong usage pattern. You keep your identities separate. If you're in a high-stakes environment where being DDoSed or attacked is an actual threat, you compartmentalize that identity adequately by going through a proxy, VPN, TOR, I2P, or using a different medium altogether. Fortunately, unlike other services, this is extremely easy with IRC since the identity is just a…

It's not a matter of one single identity. Whether you use one or multiple you have a real practical problem which does actually happen which is prevented by discord without the need for using a 3rd party tool or you have a selection of alternatives which don't. Giving discord your phone number (which theoretically could be a problem) is really not an issue by comparison (hint: while not exactly the paragon of virtue, discord in general is more trustworthy than a random user of it).

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#283

Post by kyrofa »

kakwa_ wrote: post #233
kyrofa wrote: post #223

> The reliability and lack of bloat that are inherent to IRC [...] First off, I love IRC and always will. But boy, the author sure must have a stable internet connection. In my experience one blip means a lost message with no indication that it's been lost. That is not my definition of reliable.

This was not a really issue... as long as you had access to a shell on a reliable server to screen+irssi (or tmux+weechat if you felt fancy).

Well sure, I used a bouncer like everyone else because of this issue (and for persistent presence since I dealt with people in different timezones), but that is a workaround for a protocol that isn't actually reliable, which is sort of my point.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#284

Post by lucideer »

ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #256
lucideer wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just a modern irc interpretation This is the point isn't it. If IRC were fit for purpose, we wouldn't need "modern interpretations".

if IRC weren't fit for purpose, nobody would be using it

That depends on your definition of purpose. If the purpose is to be niche tech, then yeah, sure, you're right.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#285

Post by thiht »

magsarion wrote: post #145
tester756 wrote: post #16

Discord haters look, it is simple. Until Discord appeared we had Ventrilo, Mumble, TeamSpeak, Skype, etc, etc I've been using those for like 10 years almost everyday They had voice chat, some had viable text chat, etc, etc. And then Discord appeared which had: Voice Chat, Good text chat (images, code snippets, emojis, reactions, etc) Streaming Video (!!) File share Robust bot integration Lack of security problem unli…

> Voice Chat Integrating a Jitsi bot into the channel solves this. > Good text chat (images, code snippets, emojis, reactions, etc) All possible with good old web linking. Link to an image host, a pastebin, or a file host of your choice. Many IRC clients support inline display of image/media URLs. All major IRC clients and servers support UTF-8 as well, so emoji away. > Streaming Video (!!) Jitsi (with a bot) or web…

You sound like the Dropbox guy. No one wants to jump 10 hoops for what’s considered a basic feature set nowadays.

Can you even write multi-line messages with IRC now?

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#286

Post by kyrofa »

progval wrote: post #228
kyrofa wrote: post #223

> The reliability and lack of bloat that are inherent to IRC [...] First off, I love IRC and always will. But boy, the author sure must have a stable internet connection. In my experience one blip means a lost message with no indication that it's been lost. That is not my definition of reliable.

IRC uses persistent TCP connections as a transport. You can't lose a message in the middle of a stream without the whole connection being closed, and your client would tell you about that.

> You can't lose a message in the middle of a stream without the whole connection being closed, and your client would tell you about that.

I don't know what to tell you other than "that doesn't mesh up with the reality of my experience" shrug. Even if they did tell me about a connection issue (which they often didn't), those messages are still gone with no indication that I missed anything ("hey your connection blipped" != "here are the messages you missed while you were gone").

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#287

Post by iforgotpassword »

progval wrote: post #237
iforgotpassword wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd probably switch to Discord before using Matrix as my primary way of communication. It's a clusterfuck held together by duct-tape and ADHS. I try it every now and then and within a couple minutes, I manage to break something, that my Matrix-using friends just shrug off. As an example, just a few days ago I used the web client again and had a chat with a friend. Just for fun, he added a bazillion emoji reactions to…

FWIW, someone identified the issue, and next Monday's update ( https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/postponing-libera-chat-depor... ) may include a fix

Thanks for the hint. While they don't mention the issue in that post (and neither in the linked one regarding plumbing, where they say they regret libera's decision to request disabling portalling, like it came out of the blue), let's still hope it is fixed in this release.

Again, I find the communication from matrix' side absolutely pathetic. Yes I know, it's an open source project, I don't pay them, they don't owe me anything, but come on, wtf. I really wonder how many people have had weird miscommunication because of this and never became aware of it.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#288

Post by rvz »

throw2022110401 wrote: post #88
rvz wrote: post #66

That ship has sailed. IRC lost to Discord years ago. Don't care about it being closed source. IRC also lost to the Matrix protocol as not only that is much better, it is also just as competitive with Element and they are making money, meaning that they can afford to add more features. IRC is prehistoric ancient history. It's time to evolve and leave that protocol in the dust and go with modern alternatives like Matri…

> IRC lost to Discord years ago. A couple of years ago you'd have told me the exact same thing but with s/Discord/Slack/ IRC has "lost" many times before and yet it's still around while the previous "winners" are all gone or irrelevant. Even if Discord is tolerable today how long before it becomes terminally enshittified?

> IRC has "lost" many times before and yet it's still around.

IRC is no more relevant than the fossils that are still underneath the ground.

> while the previous "winners" are all gone or irrelevant.

So Matrix is gone and irrelevant?

> Even if Discord is tolerable today how long before it becomes terminally enshittified?

Even if that happens I can guarantee you that they won't be going back to IRC.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#289

Post by imchillyb »

lightedman wrote: post #86
masklinn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the backlog support, it's the addressing of the backlog. Discord's search function is so bad it's essentially unusable so having the backlog is often useless, however the ability to "pin" a useful message or discussion by getting a link is very relevant. Baseline IRC doesn't have message addressing, regardless of backlogging. You need the "message-tags" extension ( https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/message-ta…

"Discord's search function is so bad it's essentially unusable" Discord's search function is 1,000x better than what's built into Windows 10 and 11. I've found pictures I posted from years ago in discord, Windows 10 can't even find half the files I downloaded and transferred to another drive the other day.

> I've found pictures I posted from years ago in discord, Windows 10 can't even find half the files I downloaded and transferred to another drive the other day.

That sounds like indexing settings, on your end, are not sufficient for your use cases. I suggest decreasing the interval between indexing on your machine.

If indexing is correctly setup in windows any/all files will be immediately searchable and indexed.

Re: IRC is the only viable chat protocol (2022)

#290

Post by thiht »

smarx007 wrote: post #84
scarygliders wrote: post #78

I've been on IRC since the 90's and was an Op for Undernet #Linux & #Japan for many years, used to run an IRC server for a small IRC network back in my London days, and also ran a server for the same little network in my Japan days... The article was excellent, however, it made no mention of Matrix. Matrix, like IRC, is decentralised. You can run your own homeserver - just like running an ircd. Connecting to a Matrix…

Same thought – I was surprised to see no mention of Matrix or XMPP.

XMPP is a monstrosity, just let it die… The X is why it failed, depending on the client used by participants, some features wouldn’t work as expected. I remember someone shitting me because the messages I sent were ugly in his client, maybe because of a bad font on one side or the other or something, don’t know, don’t care.
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