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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#241

Post by red-iron-pine »

klabb3 wrote: post #191
MattGaiser wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This did not prevent me from going to a great university in my country, get my master in Computer Engineering, have a curriculum good enough to immigrate to the US, and working at several tech companies including FAANG, making high 6 figures now. The key question is more, could you do that today and would you sacrifice that to give your kids that childhood? Would your grades and lack of extracurriculars have earned…

> I would not be a competitive applicant today for many of the same programs I was admitted to back then. Disclaimer: I live in the US but didn’t grow up here. I also grew up in the 90s. In my experience, in higher education the prestige of the school has a smaller impact on learning than most people seem to think. Mostly, it seems to function as networking and a badge on your resume which can open the next door . Bu…

> (although money is good).

what is the point of growth if not to make more money?

you could quit your faang job and work as a janitor while hacking projects on the side if so inclined. except one has a pathway to 500k+ and the other does not.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#242

Post by jjk166 »

bowsamic wrote: post #192
mantas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disadvantaged in what sense? It’s likely those kids won’t even go for the same grind as „managed“ kids.

Less ability to compete in the job market with others who were managed in basically all skilled jobs

When was the last time a job interviewer asked what extracurriculars you did when you were 14?

There is an extremely small sliver of society where that one additional extracurricular makes the difference between getting into an excellent school vs a merely great school. For everyone else, the long term value is quite dubious.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#243

Post by bowsamic »

majormajor wrote: post #219
bowsamic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The kids at the opposite far end of the spectrum are pretty disadvantaged too when they get a job that doesn't have everything planned out for them and where their parents (or their parents ability to pay tuition) have no sway. Especially when their reactions to things not being structured to favor them at every step leads to them having a negative reputation... Those who thrive in both good and bad circumstances can…

That’s like pointing out how money corrupts or makes you not appreciate wealth truly. That may be true in some cases, but it’s still much better to be rich than poor

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#244

Post by teaearlgraycold »

medvezhenok wrote: post #157
teaearlgraycold wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In school I didn't care about grades. Still went to a good college. In college I didn't care about grades. Still graduated. At work I don't care about promotions. I still get raises well above inflation and am doing great.

You happened to luck out by choosing a career that's in demand (whether consciously or unconsciously), and are probably pretty good at it. Otherwise your story would sound very different. I am the same way, but straddle the professional world and the artistic world (trained / educated in both), and certainly appreciate the randomness involved and how much luck was involved in the fact that I happened to be interested…

Definitely luck involved there! But also I think that as long as you have a realistic plan and are able to consistently work on it early (I started learning web dev at 8) you can mostly disregard the standard education and progression systems. I think that railroading a child through the systems without a plan is wasted effort. Not that there aren't good things to learn that way. I ended up learning a ton about art and art history thanks to my college's degree requirements.

I guess what I'm saying is you can throw a child into extracurriculars and just sort of hope the extra work makes the difference between comfort and struggling. Or you can encourage them to find hobbies and reinforce the ones that will lead to comfort and stability as my parents did.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#245

Post by twiddling »

deanmoriarty wrote: post #22

Wow, this is so sad. I grew up in Europe in the 90s with parents who pretty much let me do whatever I wanted as long as I was a well-behaved child/teenager and getting reasonable school grades. At 6 years old I was literally biking by the river or wandering in the woods with my friends after school for hours on end. Every day was an exciting adventure without any adult supervision, just random groups of 2-10 kids who…

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children...

I love this article with the comparison across generations.

I grew up in Europe in the '80s, and was riding streetcars and taking subways when I was 10.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#246

Post by SomewhatLikely »

watwut wrote: post #207
uoaei wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Witnessed this kind of thing today. Doting father of three boys on vacation. They're all ditzing around on busy sidewalks and the father barks "Control yourselves!" It occurred to me at that moment that this kind of hovering and scolding teaches children to externalize the responsibility of understanding their environment and their place within it . They will literally never learn the lessons this father wants to imp…

The busy sidewalk thing is about innocent passersbys not having to deal with rowdy kids bumping into them or otherwise bothering them. And actually, kids that are told to watch it actually overall do take more care about that sort of stuff then if parents just let them do whatever.

My young kids would be totally unaware if they were bumping into others, or causing them to stop abruptly, or otherwise interfering with others. Of course if those strangers yelled at them or provided some less harsh form of feedback it might register with them, but I find most people don't say anything so it's on me to let my kids know the effects they're behavior is having.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#247

Post by moffkalast »

caesil wrote: post #18

I wonder if this doesn't have a lot to do with cars. In surrendering utterly to the preeminence of streets, we have essentially taken our open, free world and overlain it with an immense grid of electric fences -- thick lines all over the map that, if children wander across them, might easily lead to their deaths. So "hold hands everywhere" and "don't let your children run free outside" become the norms. The only saf…

Cars do make it worse, but probably aren't what it all stems from. As an example, I lived a 5 min walk away from the primary school I was attending and wasn't allowed to make the trip on my own for years. They gave me a payphone card and I had to call one of my parents to come and walk me back.

Helicopter parents don't let things like logic and convenience get in the way of taking every atom of independence from their kids. It may also have something to do with trust. Nobody trusts their kids with anything these days anymore and then they expect them to somehow grow up capable of taking responsibility? Like, how?

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#248

Post by IanCal »

evandale wrote: post #222
IanCal wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure children are a lot different They are. Beating them into submission because you are the boss and they are just a child is not a long term solution. They are a lot more complex than cats. > I don't understand how children can have that much power over an adult. Oh I can easily just lock my son in his room, make him dance to get fed, anything really. It'd be abuse and wouldn't result in him growing into a we…

I didn't beat anything into submission. I set ground rules and gave her safe ways to be upset. If she misbehaved she lost privileges she enjoys. I never neglected her if that's what you're trying to get at. That's a pretty low-blow to accuse me of based on what I wrote. Be better. Obviously locking children in rooms isn't right. How about this, instead of locking kids in a room, you could try making a toy room and lo…

"beating into submission" is a phrase that does not mean physically beating.

> I never neglected her if that's what you're trying to get at.

If you did that to a child it would be neglect, that is the point. Children aren't cats.

It is more complex with a child. It's easier when they're a baby, but increasingly more subtle as they get older. Nobody is saying you can't take things away from them or set boundaries, but you're talking about very simple things that may work with very young children but aren't enough as they get older.

"Do as I say because I am the boss" is just not good enough. Maybe you'll get compliance but that's not enough if you want a healthy relationship with your child as they grow.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#249

Post by twiddling »

sourcecodeplz wrote: post #239

My knees and elbows were constantly hurt from all the activities.

I remember my friends and I playing tag in a copse of trees which were close enough to swing to and from branches between them. Fell out once and laid there on the ground , breath knocked out of me, staring at the dappled light through the trees...

In my 50s and I still smile when I think about that day.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#250

Post by kulahan »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #59
lolinder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by…

> I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove! Famously, the Dusun in Borneo teach their children to respect knives by allowing them to play with them (and cut themselves) as toddlers.

Obviously things are different when speaking about a different species, but when training dogs to herd large animals, you often start training them on something small like goats or sheep. Ideally, they learn what a hoof to the face feels like BEFORE they start working with, say, horses.

I guess my point is that anyone who needs to train safety totally understands how important it is for someone to understand the specific danger intimately

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