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Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

211–220 of 413 posts

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc

Most people do that with peers, not parents.

never got in a fight with my parents, but there sure were plenty of shoving matches and occasional fists with the 8th graders on at me old schoolyard...

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#212
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a curious thing to only be able to teach the dangers of something by having children try out and experience the reprecussions of dangers. I think an important skill in life is to actually predict and understand danger ahead of time. As in, a knife won't just give you a bruise, it could be easily fatal if used in even the most mildly wrong way. Falling/jumping from great heights isn't something to just experiment…

Some of these dangers are relative though. A 6 foot fall for a toddler is probably not going to kill them but relative to the size of the kid it's a great height they can experiment with. A 10 foot drop for an 8 year old is a great height to them but they'll survive. The bison example, I would think any child would be very wary of walking up to a bison. On top of that, if a child were to approach a bison I highly dou…

Mammals eat babies of other mammals. Nature ain't nice to babies.

Famously, lions kills lion babies, that is babies of own species when they encounter babies of another lion group.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#213
The argument in TFA makes sense at a conceptual level. Kids that aren’t allowed to play will be a neurotic mess.

But I hesitate to write off teen mental health as just a result of over parenting or social media. Those are probably contributing factors, how much is not clear to me.

Another contributing factor is the economic knife hanging over everyone’s head. It’s not enough to just finish high school like it was in the 1950s. It’s not even enough to finish a bachelor’s degree now, even though only 40% of millennials have accomplished that. So just being above average isn’t enough. You need to be excellent.

If you compare pretty much any other time in American history to the post-war economy, every metric is going to look worse. Does it mean we should be letting kids play tackle pom pom [1] during recess? So I’m not convinced by the hand-wavy look how great things were back in the day analysis.

This analysis would be much stronger if it tried to account for confounding factors. For example analyzing countries where life expectancy is not decreasing.

[1] https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads/school-yard-recess-game...

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7,485 pedestrians were killed by cars in the whole of the US in 2021. this is a great example of where whataboutism is not a logical fallacy. i mean what is your solution? ban all driving? sure, but give me a proper public transport network that can supply the suburbs and rural areas. fix urban cost of living while you're at it.

Remove zoning restrictions is step 1 to allow denser more walkable areas, which will reduce urban cost of living. Step 2 is to change the highway code to make stroads illegal and make more normal safe roads. Step 3 is change the fha rules so more dense homes are built. Step 4 change cafe standards so smaller lighter cars are the norm, possibly tax suvs and trucks. These are all stroke of a pen changes.

> These are all stroke of a pen changes.

In a democracy you need buy-in from society at large. What's the plan on achieving that?

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#215

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing), "they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How t…

> They are testing the world.

I like this a lot. That is so true. Personal anecdote:

When I got my first car as a teenager (a cheap, used, beat-up sedan), I would often take it out to 'play', ehm, 'test the world'. I lived in a rural area and would drive random, remote backroads for hours with no maps (and no cell phones at the time). I would try to see if I could get lost. I never succeeded. I was always able to eventually find my way, while I was simultaneously building spatial awareness and a general sense of direction that accompanies me to this day. The winter time gave me the best 'testing' environment. I would drive these backroads when they were icey and very slick. When I had certainty there was no traffic anywhere near, I would see how I handled my car when I lost control. A few rotations later, after spinning uncontrollably, I was able to regain steering and was able to navigate out of the problem.

Risky? Sure. Useful skills? Yes. Would my parents have stressed out knowing what I was doing, definitely. I'd like to think I'm a much better driver today because of it and have gotten myself out of some potentially consequential accidents because of my awareness of how a vehicle handles when out of control.

Many people learn from doing - many kids especially. Being raised in proverbial padded rooms may mask very beneficial learning that corresponds to the real consequences of life that we will inevitably face in adulthood. There will always be risk by letting our kids loose a bit more, and thats probably the scariest of things for many parents..

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#216
i'd assume that play deprivation is also a major cause of mental problems in adults. me personally i just recently discovered the joy of games feasible with one or two standard decks of cards.

current selection:

- skat

- gin rummy

- german whist

- spite and malice

i found playing cards to be an amazing catalyst and temporary distraction while having a drink with a friend. it relieves the pressure of having to talk more or less nonstop. and shifting attention to the game away from conversation tends to engage the subconscious producing new interesting subjects to discuss. similar to that effect of ideas popping up during having a shower.

any standard card game enthusiasts here? what's your game of choice?

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried preaching philosophy to my toddler but he just doesn't seem to get it for some reason :) Some toys do get "broken" (but easily fixed so they reappear in a week or more), but out of sight means out of mind! He won't even remember it exists as soon as he gets thirsty and wants his drink instead, so effectively there are already zero consequences outside of a minute of anguish. I, on the other hand, do like t…

I never understand this view, but admittedly I don't have children. I have a cat though. She's the first pet I've ever had in my life. I got lots of warnings from lots of people. Don't let her out or she'll cry all the time to go out. Keep her away from the door or she'll run out and you won't see her again. It sounded very difficult. However I didn't follow this advice and let my cat out in my backyard. And I found…

> I'm sure children are a lot different

They are.

Beating them into submission because you are the boss and they are just a child is not a long term solution.

They are a lot more complex than cats.

> I don't understand how children can have that much power over an adult.

Oh I can easily just lock my son in his room, make him dance to get fed, anything really. It'd be abuse and wouldn't result in him growing into a well rounded child and adult and he'd hate me, but I could force him to behave in basic ways like you're describing.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#218

The kid that does really well in school, makes it big is going to have an opportunity for a lot more play later in life. The kid who does nothing but play will probably end up having very little opportunity and have to work long hours later in life to barely make ends meet with lots of stress and little opportunity for play. So its a trade off. Obviously if the kid comes from a rich family that is willing to support…

I don't think it's as simple as having 100% play vs 100% work. There's got to be some optimum balance here that we're clearly not satisfying, with our flawed notion that 100% work is the best route. It's possible for people to have a satisfying social life while also doing very well in school, and it's also possible for a loner to have a depressing life while failing at school.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#219
post #2

We have really made it a point to have our kid play freely as much as possible and minimize scheduled activities (piano lessons etc.) the problem is that most of his friends are in a million classes so even if he’s free, they often aren’t. That’s been the big challenge. So then there are these magical days where they all don’t have any activities and those invariably happen to be the days ALL kids look forward to. Cu…

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The kids at the opposite far end of the spectrum are pretty disadvantaged too when they get a job that doesn't have everything planned out for them and where their parents (or their parents ability to pay tuition) have no sway.

Especially when their reactions to things not being structured to favor them at every step leads to them having a negative reputation...

Those who thrive in both good and bad circumstances can find intrinsic motivation even when things don't go their own way. A young adult who's never exposed to the need for that can flounder, just as much as a young adult who's never been held to any standards can.

Re: Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids don't need a college degree to avoid homelessness or starvation. They do need valuable skills, but that could be HVAC, electrician, carpenter, mechanic, any number of things that don't take anything more than some community/vocational college or just working your way up from entry-level to get into. People who are homeless or starving are mainly mentally ill, or simply have no skills to offer any employer and no…

yeah the AI is coming for your highfalutin desk job, but the carpenters will be making decent money for a while yet. basic woodworking skills are things that they can start picking up in HS shop classes; I spent summers working in a furniture factory framing chairs as a kid. got a neighbour who does asphalt paving -- just driveways. Dude is booked solid through the Fall and into December, and does alright. Not Palo A…

Yeah I know a guy who started as an entry-level drywaller in high school (truly one of the shittiest jobs in construction) and he now owns one of the larger drywall contractors in the area, he makes way more money than I do in software. Has more hassles than I do though, drywall company employees tend to come with a lot of headaches.
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