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It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

fredandrandall.com

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Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#131

Post by javajosh »

georgemcbay wrote: post #19

A big issue in modern hiring, IMO, is the combination of diverging specialized platforms and languages combined with overemphasis on keyword-hiring. When I first got into the industry you had: --- * old fogey LISP programmers * old fogey FORTRAN programmers * old fogey COBOL programmers * Assembly programmers * C/Win programmers * C/Unix programmers * C/Mac programmers * some people on the cutting edge looking at thi…

George, I really like your laundry-list post - and you're right, it could be much longer (at the very least, break "web programming" down into frameworks). And it inspires a thought that is only tangentially related to the OP's point, and that is the utility of fragmentation. There's a curious phenomena that when you list all of the languages out like that they all seem so...equivalent.

And yet they are only equivalent in the same way human languages are: there is a shared core of ideas that are expressible in any language, and then there are things which are easier to express in some, and which cannot be expressed in some others.

The proliferation of computer languages seems to be strong evidence to the claim that programmers do NOT believe in the equivalence of languages. And perhaps pg is right, that we already have a winner, Lisp, and most people are just too blind to see it.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#132

Post by rurounijones »

wyclif wrote: post #60
jnbiche wrote: post #3

This, exactly. I keep reading about this huge shortage of qualified developers, but I've now met enough talented developers looking for work -- who are reliable and talented, and not assholes, that I know that the standard line about a talent shortage can't be true. Perhaps it's an issue in and around the Valley, but it's not in most of the rest of the country. If you're having trouble hiring in the US outside of SF,…

"There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

"There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for the kind of money we would pay if we just outsourced it to a cheap country" ~ Company CEO

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#133

Post by vonmoltke »

javajosh wrote: post #131
georgemcbay wrote: post #19

A big issue in modern hiring, IMO, is the combination of diverging specialized platforms and languages combined with overemphasis on keyword-hiring. When I first got into the industry you had: --- * old fogey LISP programmers * old fogey FORTRAN programmers * old fogey COBOL programmers * Assembly programmers * C/Win programmers * C/Unix programmers * C/Mac programmers * some people on the cutting edge looking at thi…

George, I really like your laundry-list post - and you're right, it could be much longer (at the very least, break "web programming" down into frameworks). And it inspires a thought that is only tangentially related to the OP's point, and that is the utility of fragmentation. There's a curious phenomena that when you list all of the languages out like that they all seem so...equivalent. And yet they are only equivale…

I have encountered a few (too few) companies who recognize the equivalence of languages, and recognize that moving from, say, Python to Java isn't very difficult and isn't nearly the same gulf as trying to move from C to Java.

That said, the proliferation of language/framework-of-the-week projects is a serious drag on the industry. Its too easy right now to roll your own framework/JVM language/interpreter. The temptation is too great to manufacture a framework/JVM language/interpreter to solve your sort-of unique problem instead of adapting an existing one to your needs through modifications or extensions. In addition to clouding the buzzword pool, it hurts the position of existing languages because the energy that could have gone into improving language/framework X now goes into developing Y based on X instead.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#134

Post by sheraz »

Jabbles wrote: post #129
sheraz wrote: post #51

From the comments here, and in other similar posts, the HN community seems to think only one side of the interview process is broken. I posit that all sides are broken -- yes -- the recruiters, the hiring companies, and YOU, the engineer/marketer/whatever you are. I'm only going to address the one part that matters -- you. Who cares how qualified you are? You think that entitles you to a job? Gimme a break!!! Do me a…

I cannot comprehend how someone could have so "excellent hygiene" that I would want to hire them...

I can. Have you ever worked in a startup with 30 other guys in a balmy office space in the summer?

Will this hire go in front of clients or investors?

Believe me, it matters. However, I said that with a twinkle in my eye. I regret there is no or tag

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#135

Post by wr1472 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #108
wr1472 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a disproportional response based on just one aspect of whatever solution the OP is working on. What is so offensive about JVM memory management? Out of interest what is better in that regard?

Java is pretty well know for being a memory hog. One of the problems is that nearly everything is an object so you end up with a lot of pointers which takes up additional space. Garbage collection isn't free either. In this case it would have made sense to go with C++ and allocated as much as possible on the stack. It is cheaper memory wise (because you don't have to keep whatever malloc requires around and because t…

Please cite some references on it being a memory hog, and in relation to what?

Using C++ makes the assumption that the developer can manage memory a lot better than the JVM. Especially when said developer(s) are developing high level business or web applications for example. And do you really expect developers to spend time writing code that manages memory as opposed to shipping functionality.

I don't know if you have used Java, although I get the impression that you've written C++ programs. You shouldn't be so hasty in pinning your colours to the mast so aggressively over a language. As many people on HN have pointed out it's not the language, but what you do with it that counts.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#136

Post by angelbob »

gruseom wrote: post #46
grannyg00se wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's a reason that Silicon Valley is almost entirely white, male, and under 40, and it has nothing to do with technical aptitude." Ouch....That's a very damning statement. I'm not in a position to comment on the truth of it - all I can say is that I hope you're wrong.

Silicon Valley is almost entirely white That's far from the case.

In small startups it's white, Indian and Asian. There are occasional women but less frequently as programmers. Women are more common as designers and sometimes sysadmins, though.

Bigger companies don't look like this. They look more like big companies all over.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#137

Post by angelbob »

im3w1l wrote: post #113
ecaradec wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, there is a recruiting process in place but the easiest way to get the job is to get informal and skip the process. That's really inline with the article ihmo, the process is broken.

So you are saying it is ripe for disruption?

Many people are trying hard to do this now. It's a tough problem.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#138

Post by katabatic »

match wrote: post #93
RandallBrown wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. The whole point of the post was to point out that there are lots of good coders out there that are being labeled as bad coders because of poor hiring processes.

I agree with you that these companies are probably turning away qualified developers. However at my current job it is the prevailing feeling, and I mostly agree, that it's better to turn away a few qualified candidates in order to prevent a mis-hire.

I generally agree with that sentiment too -- having seen what a bad hire can do first-hand. However, I feel like the industry has gone too far in that direction, and may in fact be selecting for a different kind of mis-hire.

When you spend an entire interview doing college computer science quiz type questions, and none of it on process, code review, coding style, development philosophy, approach to testing, etc.... you end up selecting for people who are good test-takers, but may not be any good at writing maintainable code. Or debugging. Or troubleshooting production issues. etc... etc...

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#139

Post by match »

_delirium wrote: post #110
pyre wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just an HR issue. I've come across a number of situations where developers are making hiring decisions and using arbitrary criteria to base them on. E.g.: * The fire storm over Deviant Art's 'we only hired 0.0000001% of people' blogpost/HN discussion. * I went through the application process at a start-up where they were "really excited" about me after the first interview, but dropped me after the second bec…

On the trivia-questions angle, I do think developers who've been working with a particular set of technology for a while tend to highly value deep knowledge of the particulars of that technology, and under-estimate the competence of someone who doesn't come from exactly the same background. It's not so much that they feel the detail is important, but that it becomes a heuristic of, if you don't know X and call yourse…

This is why I never make a judgment based on the answer of a single trivia-like question. I will jump all over the map and ask about as many different aspects of a topic as I can, hoping to map out where the depth of knowledge is for a candidate. If I am getting mostly blank stares I then give them the opportunity to decide what to tell me about the subject, in case they can surprise me. Unfortunately the vast majority of the time candidates are unable to convince me that they have deep knowledge on a subject. I want to find qualified people as much as these people would like to be considered qualified. But sometimes I feel like I throw a bunch of stuff at the candidate and NOTHING sticks.

I am beginning to believe that the majority of people who consider themselves experts or experienced are really just novice or intermediate and don't realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#140

Post by match »

katabatic wrote: post #138
match wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that these companies are probably turning away qualified developers. However at my current job it is the prevailing feeling, and I mostly agree, that it's better to turn away a few qualified candidates in order to prevent a mis-hire.

I generally agree with that sentiment too -- having seen what a bad hire can do first-hand. However, I feel like the industry has gone too far in that direction, and may in fact be selecting for a different kind of mis-hire. When you spend an entire interview doing college computer science quiz type questions, and none of it on process, code review, coding style, development philosophy, approach to testing, etc.... y…

I actually agree with you. This is why I never make a hiring decision based on a single trivia question, but I do ask trivia questions that are all over the map on a topic in order to find something the candidate is good at. Honestly, if you can answer any of my trivia questions in a deep and meaningful way that demonstrates insight into the topic then I'm satisfied.
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