Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you want to criticize the current system without bringing in a proposal?
The proposal is clear from the comment if you read it: it's not a proposal about a socioeconomic system, but about how to analyze socioeconomic systems. Namely, that we shouldn't just think about the first-order consequences of things being arranged according to a certain system, but we should also think about what forces inherent in the system are driving it to change so that it is organized differently. That is all…
Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
201–210 of 213 posts
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you want to criticize the current system without bringing in a proposal?
The proposal is clear from the comment if you read it: it's not a proposal about a socioeconomic system, but about how to analyze socioeconomic systems. Namely, that we shouldn't just think about the first-order consequences of things being arranged according to a certain system, but we should also think about what forces inherent in the system are driving it to change so that it is organized differently. That is all…
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Income growth has stagnated because of growing centralization. All of this socialism you claim we need is contributing to that centralization. That's an unsubstantiated claim. The material you referenced points to other sources as the culprit. But let's start from the beginning. There has been wage stagnation and the workers share of the profit has been steadily shrinking ever since the 1970ies. The Bosworth piece…
> There has been wage stagnation and the workers share of the profit has been steadily shrinking ever since the 1970ies. Even the Bosworth piece you link to asserts that much. The Brookings article asserts that the wage growth stagnation is less severe than what graphs like the EPI's show, and moreover, that the reduction in the workers share of the profit is much less severe than what the EPI graph shows. The articl…
You should continue reading the paragraph you cited. Because it continues
> but that may not be surprising in view of the enormous economic losses that were precipitated by the financial crises.
So, Bosworth does not see power of the unions as the reason for the slowing productivity. He sees it in the financial crisis.
Please also see that in Fig. 1 of the article, we see that the goes up and down and up and down, without correlation to any union laws that would explain this; there were no big changes between 2005 an 2014 that would explain the numbers according to your hypothesis. Bosworth doesn't even mention unions.
> The argument is [...]
Neither of the two articles give your argument credible support. One is a pretty shallow opinion peace pulling numbers out of the air and the other one is a list of anecdotes about what looks very much like graft to me. Not sure what the second one has to do with unions.
I think I agree that rent-takers incomes are responsible for reducing the general population's. Social welfare however is not what I have in mind, quite the contrary.
> The effective tax rate of high income earners is much higher than that of a typical janitor..
These people have tax lawyers for a reason. W. Buffet even raised that issue in an 2012 interview[1]. It's become so bad, even millionaires are asking to fix the loopholes big as barn doors[2].
> This claim that manufacturing just offshored is unfounded.
How devastating offshoring was to US industry is well examined.[3,4] Just 1993-2000 the U.S. economy lost an average of 30.3 million jobs per year.
> Corporate earnings growth has slowed significantly since the 1950s
A finite world can only allow for finite growth. It's basic physics. Not that that matters; corporate profits are still sky high - and growing higher still. But labor's share is shrinking and shrinking. Again, I cite Bosworth:
> he new phenomenon is the decline in labor’s share of income for which we have no satisfactory explanation.
And as a possible explanation he refers to the already mentioned causes; reduced bargaining power through the global market and through corporate consolidation, reduced competition between companies.
> regulations that impose enormous compliance
Bosworth also mentioned regulations as a cause for the reduced share of worker. And you know what? I agree with that. Especially gratuitous regulation that allows regulatory capture or that otherwise reduces competition should be carefully weeded out.
> They keep manufacturing from returning.
European manufacturing, although also impacted by offshoring, seems stable despite much, much stronger union laws than those of the U.S. Germany especially has very strong unions and is nevertheless considered a manufacturing powerhouse.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/warren-buffett...
[2] https://patrioticmillionaires.org/2023/06/22/the-real-reason...
[3] https://www.americanprogress.org/article/offshoring-by-the-n...
[4] https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/new-assessment-role-offshorin...
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There has been wage stagnation and the workers share of the profit has been steadily shrinking ever since the 1970ies. Even the Bosworth piece you link to asserts that much. The Brookings article asserts that the wage growth stagnation is less severe than what graphs like the EPI's show, and moreover, that the reduction in the workers share of the profit is much less severe than what the EPI graph shows. The articl…
> So I reiterate, that the culprit is slowing productivity growth. You should continue reading the paragraph you cited. Because it continues > but that may not be surprising in view of the enormous economic losses that were precipitated by the financial crises. So, Bosworth does not see power of the unions as the reason for the slowing productivity. He sees it in the financial crisis. Please also see that in Fig. 1 o…
Bosworth is referencing the period after 2005, which of course had its productivity affected by the financial crisis. The slowdown since 1973 has other more structural causes.
>These people have tax lawyers for a reason.
It doesn't change the fact that their effective tax rate is much higher than a typical janitor's.
>Just 1993-2000 the U.S. economy lost an average of 30.3 million jobs per year.
You're misreading your sources. They say 300,000 - 500,000 jobs per year.
And outsourcing was in large part a symptom of the widespread hostility to industry in the wake of its takeover by unions.
>A finite world can only allow for finite growth. It's basic physics. Not that that matters; corporate profits are still sky high - and growing higher still. But labor's share is shrinking and shrinking.
The primary cause of the slowdown in wage growth is the slowdown in productivity growth. So you blaming a slight decrease in labor's share of income is misplaced.
As for corporate profits, of course as long as revenue growth is not negative, new profit records will be reached every year.
As for the physical limits of growth: we are nowhere near them. There are orders of magnitude more physical resources that human civilization can harvest for production.
The slowdown is most likely due to obviously harmful economic policy, like increasing forced income redistribution to pay into wasteful union run social programs, and letting unions take control of industry through laws mandating that companies engage in collective bargaining with unions to the exclusion of all other parties.
>European manufacturing, although also impacted by offshoring, seems stable despite much, much stronger union laws than those of the U.S.
European manufacturing growth and global market share has plummetted right alongside the US's. And Europe, due to higher income redistribution through social programs and more labor regulations, has been outperformed by the US. Since 2008 in fact, US nomimal GDP has doubled, while Europe's has stayed stagnant.
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
> There were problems in the free market in the 1900's with employees being slaves, corporations were hiring Pinkertons and killing people. It was actual war. So Unions were the outcome. Pinkertons were brought in when unions set up picket lines, and then beat up or killed any worker who crossed it. Unions call replacement workers "scabs" to dehumanize them, so that they can rationalize brutalizing them. It was alway…
But why were there picket lines? I don't think people were taking that risk, and dying, in order to extract rent, to merely get paid more. They were forced by working conditions and limited options. Which is what happens if corporations control all jobs, and thus removing the option to 'shop-around' in a free-market of 'job opportunities'. If there is no option to leave, one must try to improve the current situation.…
Because of greed. There was no justification for using violence to coerce employers into paying them above market wages.
>Which is what happens if corporations control all jobs, and thus removing the option to 'shop-around' in a free-market of 'job opportunities'.
The evidence clearly shows that these people who striked were not contrained in employment option from some imagined monopoly held by a corporate cartel on jobs offered.
>If enough people are starving, and there are no safety nets, then the situation does get violent. This is where more dramatic violent revolutions come from.
People were not starving. Millions were migrating to the US because its free market economy was providing unprecedented wages. Wages doubled for unskilled labor between 1870 and 1900 despite this massive influx of new workers.
The answer was to not tolerate violent strikes, and not buy into the strikers' unfounded claims of being victims.
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
But why were there picket lines? I don't think people were taking that risk, and dying, in order to extract rent, to merely get paid more. They were forced by working conditions and limited options. Which is what happens if corporations control all jobs, and thus removing the option to 'shop-around' in a free-market of 'job opportunities'. If there is no option to leave, one must try to improve the current situation.…
> But why were there picket lines? Because of greed. There was no justification for using violence to coerce employers into paying them above market wages. > Which is what happens if corporations control all jobs, and thus removing the option to 'shop-around' in a free-market of 'job opportunities'. The evidence clearly shows that these people who striked were not contrained in employment option from some imagined mo…
Companies are groups of individuals, that are greedy.
Unions are groups of individuals, that are greedy.
Why is one morally superior to the other?
Also.-- Not all greed. During industrial revolution, in factory jobs. It was not uncommon to have a hand chopped off in an press, or any dozens of injuries. If you lost a hand, and can't work, and your family starved, then what. Fighting against those conditions is not 'greed'.
You might retort, in a free market, workers could just leave. But that doesn't work if all jobs are the same. Leave one factory to got to another, both are unsafe? You are missing where entire systems can lock people in (too poor to leave the factory town), and the only re-course is to try and change the current situation, by forming unions or protesting, or revolt.
Also, think you are missing how power dynamics work.
This short video on 'the implication' helps explain the relationships that exists within corporations (boss-employee)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THvCDn8mGwo
EDIT> DO have to add. I am pretty biased toward unions as they were needed during Industrial Revolution. Some did later morph and become problems. And in modern context, maybe Unions aren't the answer, but we need something to push back against wide spread wage suppression. It is crazy that people can have full time jobs, and still be on welfare. That is Corporations benefiting by the government making up the difference, and allowing the corp to profit more. But, if you just cut people off, they starve and revolt. So what is answer.
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#207He's arguing that capitalist systems morph over time into feudalistic systems and the argument is pretty persuasive but there's an issue: capitalism initially emerged out of feudalism. The text's theory of history requires a hidden variable that controls the feudalism->capitalism->feudalism process, but no candidate for a hidden variable is suggested by the author. Sure, any reader can think up some candidates for th…
I think feudalism is a misnomer here. Feudalism is a historiographically messy concept to begin with and many Medievalists reject the term outright. But even if we were to distill it down to some simplistic yet workable definition I still don't think whatever we come up with would be applicable to the present situation without seriously torturing the analogy. 'Rentier capitalism' would be more apt.
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So I reiterate, that the culprit is slowing productivity growth. You should continue reading the paragraph you cited. Because it continues > but that may not be surprising in view of the enormous economic losses that were precipitated by the financial crises. So, Bosworth does not see power of the unions as the reason for the slowing productivity. He sees it in the financial crisis. Please also see that in Fig. 1 o…
> So, Bosworth does not see power of the unions as the reason for the slowing productivity. Bosworth is referencing the period after 2005, which of course had its productivity affected by the financial crisis. The slowdown since 1973 has other more structural causes. > These people have tax lawyers for a reason. It doesn't change the fact that their effective tax rate is much higher than a typical janitor's. > Just 1…
It seems that this sources is not consistent, so I'll disregard it. Thanks for pointing out this obvious incongruity, I should have noticed that myself.
> The primary cause of the slowdown in wage growth is the slowdown in productivity growth
> And Europe, due to higher income redistribution through social programs and more labor regulations,
> The slowdown is most likely due to obviously harmful economic policy,
Again and again you make the same assumptions without having any evidence supporting these claims. If we compare the growth curves of the US and Europe, the growth rates look very much the same, despite having very different labor laws and union strengths [1].
That seems to suggest that labor laws indeed don't have too much of an impact.
> It doesn't change the fact that their effective tax rate is much higher than a typical janitor's.
Buffet and his millionaire friends have already explained how they and their friends are cheating. Buffet hat a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. Has had for years.
> As for the physical limits of growth: we are nowhere near them.
The practical limits of growth will kick in much earlier than the physical limits. Ever diminishing returns will necessarily reduce growth; when there's not even a path, a street will greatly improve productivity. Once you have a road, a better road will only do so much. You can see that kind of growth slowdown in any developed economy. The Asian tigers are following the same curve as the US and Europe; continuously accelerated growth is impossible.
> US nomimal GDP has doubled
So what is is now? GDP has doubled, despite the oppressive socialist union laws? I'm certain you realize that something doesn't quite add up with your argument, right?
Meanwhile minimal wage has not been increased for 14 years.
[1] https://statisticstimes.com/economy/united-states-vs-eu-econ...
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#209Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So, Bosworth does not see power of the unions as the reason for the slowing productivity. Bosworth is referencing the period after 2005, which of course had its productivity affected by the financial crisis. The slowdown since 1973 has other more structural causes. > These people have tax lawyers for a reason. It doesn't change the fact that their effective tax rate is much higher than a typical janitor's. > Just 1…
> You're misreading your sources. They say 300,000 - 500,000 jobs per year. It seems that this sources is not consistent, so I'll disregard it. Thanks for pointing out this obvious incongruity, I should have noticed that myself. > The primary cause of the slowdown in wage growth is the slowdown in productivity growth > And Europe, due to higher income redistribution through social programs and more labor regulations,…
Your graph confirms what I stated: the growth rate since 2010 has sharply diverged. After the EU finished enjoying the growth benefits of integrating newly freed former-Easter-Bloc countries, the harmful effects of being more centralized through regulatory regimentation and social welfare forced redistribution became more apparent.
The evidence overwhelmingly shows that unions and the free-market-suppressing laws they advocate are harmful to economic growth. This is broadly accepted by economists, as politically incorrect as it may be.
More centralization, via higher levels of government spending as a percentage of GDP, is strongly correlated with lower rates of economic growth:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170821004405/http://ime.bg/upl...
>>Buffet and his millionaire friends have already explained how they and their friends are cheating. Buffet hat a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. Has had for years.
Buffett is wrong. The top 1% have a much higher effective tax rate than the typical secretary.
>>The practical limits of growth will kick in much earlier than the physical limits. Ever diminishing returns will necessarily reduce growth; when there's not even a path, a street will greatly improve productivity. Once you have a road, a better road will only do so much. You can see that kind of growth slowdown in any developed economy. The Asian tigers are following the same curve as the US and Europe; continuously accelerated growth is impossible.
Your assumption that we are approaching some technological limit of growth is unsubstantiated:
1. Growth has accelerated every century for the past five centuries.
2. The slowdown in growth in the advanced economies corresponded with a massive rise in social welfare spending as a percentage of GDP, and expansion of regulatory regimentation of the economy, and these are perfectly capable of explaining that slowdown, without resorting to any unfounded theories that there is technological limits set an inherent ceiling on growth.
Let's explore some of these:
In 1950, only 5 percent of occupations required a license. Today, it's over 30 percent. In 1950, the Code of Federal Regulations was a tiny fraction of the size it is today, with no EPA or OSHA hounding companies every year.
[Make elites compete: Why the 1% earn so much and what to do about it](https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-t...)
In 1950, healthcare wasn't centralized and heavily bureaucratized due to the all-encompassing regulations left-leaning anti-libertarians have imposed since then:
[Expert Forum: The rise (and rise) of the healthcare administrator](https://www.athenahealth.com/knowledge-hub/practice-manageme...)
>Here's some food for thought: The number of physicians in the United States grew 150 percent between 1975 and 2010, roughly in keeping with population growth, while the number of healthcare administrators increased 3,200 percent for the same time period.
Healthcare is now controlled by mega-coorporations who are able to pay the huge fixed fees attached with complying with healthcare regulations.
And then there are the enormous public sector unions, who get all of their income from taxpayers, and massively contribute to the Democratic Party to ensure they keep getting more tax dollars:
At $140,000 Per Year, Why Are Government Workers In California Paid Twice As Much As Private Sector Workers?
https://hoover.org/research/california-state-government-work...
>In 2019, California state government workers earned an average of $143,000 per year, while local government employees earned nearly as much, averaging about $131,000 annually. But California’s private sector workers earned about $71,000, roughly half as much as their public sector counterparts. These figures include base pay, as well as overtime, and the value of non-wage benefits, such as employer pension/retirement contributions, health care, and paid days off. > >For over fifty years, public sector and private sector compensation rates were very similar, rising from roughly $17,000 in 1929 to about $45,000 in the early 1980s (both values are measured using 2008 dollars). But after the early 1980s, compensation rates began to diverge, with public sector pay rising much faster than that in the private sector over the last forty years.
And most importantly of all, left-leaning politicians in the 1950s hadn't locked down the housing markets in the most important metropolitan regions in the US:
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388
The massive increase in regulations on housing since the 1950s explains most of the rise in income inequality since 1950. Most inequality seems to stem from housing scarcity driving up housing costs (see Figure 3):
https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2015a_r...
3. Your argument is similar to that made in the mid 19th century:
"It is only in the backward countries of the world that increased production is still an important object: in those most advanced, what is economically needed is a better distribution"
-John Stuart Mill, Principles of Political Economy (1848, book IV, chap. VI)
The subsequent century saw economic growth rates in advanced countries accelerate, thus proving Mill wrong. If it weren't for the massive increase in social welfarism and free-market-suppressing regulatory regimentation, there's no reason to assume economic growth in advanced countries wouldn't have accelerated over the last few decades.
There are numerous emerging technologies that could massively increase productivity over the coming decades, like robotics, the space industry, nanotechnology, AI, public blockchains, etc. There is absolutely no reason to believe we are anywhere near the technological limits of productivity, or in an era of inherently diminishing returns on investment.
>>So what is is now? GDP has doubled, despite the oppressive socialist union laws? I'm certain you realize that something doesn't quite add up with your argument, right?
Nominal GDP doesn't capture everything of course, but comparing nominal GDP growth between the US and Europe can give us some indication as to which policies are better for economic development, and the US far surpassing the EU in nominal GDP growth suggests that the EU's comparatively greater economic centralization around government is harmful to growth.
>>Meanwhile minimal wage has not been increased for 14 years.
The minimum wage price control is not a measure of prosperity. The minimum wage price control should be zero, and I encourage you to study Economics to see why it, and all other price controls, should be abolished.
Re: Autoenshittification. How the computer killed capitalism. – by Cory Doctorow
#210Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But why were there picket lines? Because of greed. There was no justification for using violence to coerce employers into paying them above market wages. > Which is what happens if corporations control all jobs, and thus removing the option to 'shop-around' in a free-market of 'job opportunities'. The evidence clearly shows that these people who striked were not contrained in employment option from some imagined mo…
I think the word 'greed' is making too much of a moral judgment. Companies are groups of individuals, that are greedy. Unions are groups of individuals, that are greedy. Why is one morally superior to the other? Also.-- Not all greed. During industrial revolution, in factory jobs. It was not uncommon to have a hand chopped off in an press, or any dozens of injuries. If you lost a hand, and can't work, and your family…
Neither is superior to the other. But when anyone, from any group, argues for laws suppressing the free market rights of others, they are abusing others. People do this when in corporations, and when in unions, and I condemn them the same either way. It just so happens that almost all unions do this, because unions have almost no power without suppressing the free market rights of others.
>>You are missing where entire systems can lock people in (too poor to leave the factory town), and the only re-course is to try and change the current situation, by forming unions or protesting, or revolt.
Again, the evidence shows that people were not locked in factory towns:
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in...