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Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

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Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#41
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also oppose these bills. The effect of the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA), which I have read, is that anyone under 18 years old would be prevented from viewing any content that a (most likely inaccurate) classification filter deems "harmful". This type of mandated censorship would never be accepted by adults with voting rights for themselves, and it is unfortunate that lawmakers continue to target the disenfranchise…

You have misunderstood several aspects of this law. > I also oppose these bills. The effect of the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA), which I have read, is that anyone under 18 years old would be prevented from viewing any content that a (most likely inaccurate) classification filter deems "harmful". The law specifically excludes sites that are not predominantly user-generated content. So if you are running a website abo…

Government-mandated censorship does not suddenly become acceptable when it is restricted to user-generated content on a website that is not operated by a non-profit. When the government prevents people under 18 from watching YouTube videos or reading posts on major social networks about how asinine and anxiety-inducing the passage of authoritarian laws (such as the Kids Online Safety Act) would be, that is an unjustifiable suppression of political speech. That is the type of censorship the Kids Online Safety Act would enable if it is enacted.

You cannot simply assume that "reasonable measures" would exclude censorship when the phrase is attached to a mandate to "prevent and mitigate" anxiety and depression. A plaintiff or prosecutor could easily argue that "reasonable measures" do include censorship because these platforms have moderation teams, and simply saying "No it does not" is not a very good counterargument. Even though it is impractical to censor all discussions that fit some broad criteria (as the Great Firewall demonstrates), that does not make the censorship acceptable.

The Kids Online Safety Act's sponsor, Richard Blumenthal, is one of the two senators who reintroduced the EARN IT Act in 2022* after it died in committee in 2020. Based on this, it's clear that the intent of the Kids Online Safety Act is to allow the government to stifle certain types of speech on certain mainstream websites and platforms under the guise of protecting children, which is also what the EARN IT Act attempted to do. The Kids Online Safety Act is written so ambiguously that any competent attorney would be able to use it to suppress protected speech and limit the ability of people under 18 to obtain information online. This bill needs to be stopped.

* https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/1/22912387/earn-it-act-secti...

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#42
post #39
post #26

This is a pretty fucking awful bill https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/07/young-people-should-op... HN is now subject to astroturfers? The comments in here are insane

The EFF complaints are specious FUD. There are many VERY simple ways to comply with KOSA that don't involve censorship, most of which boil down to "don't make your money by using weaponized human psychology on children". Does the bill make it harder for Meta to monetize and juice engagement amount the under-17 population? Absolutely. The job of Meta becomes much more difficult. They'll survive. > astroturfers I don't…

Half the comments in this thread are you systematically writing essay replies to every single person that has raised doubts about this bill. Whats more, you spend significant time blowing smoke up the ass of someone who willingly self identified themselves in here about co-writing the bill themselves, who also replied to other comments in this thread. So we can tell off the bat that there is a vested, devoted, interest in shaping the perception of this bill by the literal people who wrote it here.

You then have the gall to call the EFF complaints 'specious FUD'. You can't even construct alegitimate counterargument. Just straight up dismissing them and saying they're fearmongering. You deflect this by claiming the bill will 'stick it to the man' that is Meta.

Finally, you pathetically try to appeal to authority with the claim that the bill has forty two co-sponsors. This literally means fucking nothing. Absolutely nothing. Entire DUMBER bills are written and supported by more congressmen. It's honestly embarrassing that you think this is a strong point of why your bill should be passed through.

So please, tell me how this isn't the genuine definition of astroturfing?

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#43
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have misunderstood several aspects of this law. > I also oppose these bills. The effect of the Kids Online Safety Act (KOSA), which I have read, is that anyone under 18 years old would be prevented from viewing any content that a (most likely inaccurate) classification filter deems "harmful". The law specifically excludes sites that are not predominantly user-generated content. So if you are running a website abo…

Government-mandated censorship does not suddenly become acceptable when it is restricted to user-generated content on a website that is not operated by a non-profit. When the government prevents people under 18 from watching YouTube videos or reading posts on major social networks about how asinine and anxiety-inducing the passage of authoritarian laws (such as the Kids Online Safety Act) would be, that is an unjusti…

> When the government prevents people under 18 from watching YouTube videos

KOSA does NOT prevent people under 18 from watching anything they want.

> Richard Blumenthal, is one of the two senators who reintroduced the EARN IT Act in 2022

More specious FUD. KOSA is not EARN IT. There are several KOSA co-sponsors who did not support EARN IT. Why conflate the two? Can we not just have an adult conversation about what KOSA actually does or does not do?

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#44
post #42
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EFF complaints are specious FUD. There are many VERY simple ways to comply with KOSA that don't involve censorship, most of which boil down to "don't make your money by using weaponized human psychology on children". Does the bill make it harder for Meta to monetize and juice engagement amount the under-17 population? Absolutely. The job of Meta becomes much more difficult. They'll survive. > astroturfers I don't…

Half the comments in this thread are you systematically writing essay replies to every single person that has raised doubts about this bill. Whats more, you spend significant time blowing smoke up the ass of someone who willingly self identified themselves in here about co-writing the bill themselves, who also replied to other comments in this thread. So we can tell off the bat that there is a vested, devoted, intere…

I noticed that you haven't bothered to reply to any of my reasons for supporting KOSA, or any of the observations about factual inaccuracies or exaggerations in the EFF post.

There exist people who disagree with you and who aren't paid PR shills. Like me. I feel strongly about a bill that you don't like. It's possible to have an adult conversation about the merits of the bill without accusing literally everyone who disagrees with you of astrofurfing.

The accusation of astroturfing -- which BY DEFINITION involves fake identities -- is particularly ironic in this thread where the ONLY non-anonymous comment is from a supporter.

You're like the person who says that they can't believe that some candidate or another won and election because they have literally never met a person in their life who would vote for that candidate.

I've explained my reasons for supporting this bill at length. Instead of responding to my long and substantive rebuttals about the EFF's claims, you're name calling.

I'm not going to convince you. That's fine. Others can read the EFF post, them read my comments here, then read the bill, and form their own opinion.

(Also: two can play at this ridiculously juvenile game. I would not be surprised if Meta et al. astrofurf comment sections on topcis like this. For every one person like me, there are dozens of low-effort paranoid comments designed to direct the hive mind away from regulating Meta's bullshit.)

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#45
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of KOSA does not require age verification. The standard in the statute is "reasonably should know" that a user is a minor. This likely looks something like the status quo, where the site asks for but does not verify your age. Additionally, if the site does not know the user's age but eg categorizes a person as "12-15 years old" for the purpose of ad targeting and sells ads based upon this targeting feature,…

> It even contains language that absolves platforms of responsibility for content specifically requested by children Actually, the bill does not absolve platforms of that responsibility. Let me format the text of the bill's Section 3(b) into something more readable: > SEC. 3. Duty of care. >> (b) Limitation.—Nothing in subsection (a) shall be construed to require a covered platform to prevent or preclude— >>> (1) any…

> It does not prevent websites from allowing minors to search for censored content censored by the bill, but the text of the "Limitation" still does not allow websites to display content censored by the bill

No judge except the most cravenly political would accept that the legislature intended that kids should be able to type things into a search bar but not see the results of the search. That makes no sense and clearly isn't what the law intends. Which does in fact matter.

And if a judge is that full of shit, I don't think the absence of KOSA is going to stop them from finding some pretense to accept an inane legal theory with similar results.

Anyways, I agree the word "display" should be added, but this whole line of argumentation seems pretty desperate.

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government-mandated censorship does not suddenly become acceptable when it is restricted to user-generated content on a website that is not operated by a non-profit. When the government prevents people under 18 from watching YouTube videos or reading posts on major social networks about how asinine and anxiety-inducing the passage of authoritarian laws (such as the Kids Online Safety Act) would be, that is an unjusti…

> When the government prevents people under 18 from watching YouTube videos KOSA does NOT prevent people under 18 from watching anything they want. > Richard Blumenthal, is one of the two senators who reintroduced the EARN IT Act in 2022 More specious FUD. KOSA is not EARN IT. There are several KOSA co-sponsors who did not support EARN IT. Why conflate the two? Can we not just have an adult conversation about what KO…

> KOSA does NOT prevent people under 18 from watching anything they want.

You're assuming that people under 18 do not want to see content that may trigger anxiety or depression. The reality is that not everything in the world is positive, and people under 18 also want to be informed of negative news (such as the introduction of KOSA) so that they can educate themselves and respond appropriately.

> More specious FUD.

The only FUD here is the KOSA bill itself, which is a censorship bill that is being pushed as a way to "think of the children". Hiding content that may trigger anxiety or depression from people under 18 does not "protect children" any more than banning books does. Richard Blumenthal already has a history of introducing and co-sponsoring internet censorship bills including the PROTECT IP Act (PIPA) and the EARN IT Act, bills that the public does not support. KOSA is yet another iteration of the same authoritarian lawmaking.

Over 90 human rights organizations oppose KOSA because the bill harms people under 18 by diminishing their privacy, safety, and ability to access information: https://www.fightforthefuture.org/news/2022-11-28-letter-90-.... These organizations include ones dedicated to civil rights, youth advocacy, and LGBTQ representation. No amount of hand-waving can make up for the problems in KOSA, a bill that has a negative impact on people under 18 despite its supporters' claims to the contrary.

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#47
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of Section 3(b)(1) is phrased in such a way that it actually does not address the censorship concern, since it only allows people under 18 to search for censored content, but still does not allow websites to display censored content. I've explained here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36900707 Section 3(a)(1) does not specifically list trans issues, but it does list anxiety and depression as two condit…

The "search vs display" logic is incredibly tortured, the legislative intent is more than clear, and no reasonable regulator or court would arrive at this interpretation of the statute. I agree that amending the text to mention "display" would improve the statute, but I doubt it much matters. If the regulators and courts are this unreasonable, they're going to do what they want and do damn with the letter of the law…

> Allowing Meta et al to run amok unchecked on America's youth

KOSA will implement government-mandated censorship against any content that is believed to trigger anxiety or depression, which is not an effective way to aid minors. In fact, over 90 human rights organizations have concluded that KOSA's censorship regime would be detrimental to minors:

> KOSA establishes a burdensome, vague “duty of care” to prevent harms to minors for a broad range of online services that are reasonably likely to be used by a person under the age of 17. While KOSA’s aims of preventing harassment, exploitation, and mental health trauma for minors are laudable, the legislation is unfortunately likely to have damaging unintended consequences for young people. KOSA would require online services to “prevent” a set of harms to minors, which is effectively an instruction to employ broad content filtering to limit minors’ access to certain online content. Content filtering is notoriously imprecise; filtering used by schools and libraries in response to the Children’s Internet Protection Act has curtailed access to critical information such as sex education or resources for LGBTQ+ youth. Online services would face substantial pressure to over-moderate, including from state Attorneys General seeking to make political points about what kind of information is appropriate for young people. At a time when books with LGBTQ+ themes are being banned from school libraries and people providing healthcare to trans children are being falsely accused of “grooming,” KOSA would cut off another vital avenue of access to information for vulnerable youth.

https://www.fightforthefuture.org/news/2022-11-28-letter-90-...

I'm also not impressed with how you are suggesting that people who oppose KOSA are pro-Meta. I do not use any Meta services and I have criticized Meta's privacy abuses for many years. KOSA's censorship mandate does not improve anyone's privacy in any way, and may actually benefit Meta by enlarging its moat since smaller competing social network services may not have the necessary budget or staffing needed to implement the censorship.

> And hell, in the majority of those states, the general assemblies will almost certainly pass much more explicitly worded statutes about displaying trans content to children.

The fact that some U.S. states are already limiting LGBT discourse by banning books is not a good reason to pass KOSA, a broadly worded federal bill that would be used to further hinder access to LGBT resources nationwide.

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#48
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It even contains language that absolves platforms of responsibility for content specifically requested by children Actually, the bill does not absolve platforms of that responsibility. Let me format the text of the bill's Section 3(b) into something more readable: > SEC. 3. Duty of care. >> (b) Limitation.—Nothing in subsection (a) shall be construed to require a covered platform to prevent or preclude— >>> (1) any…

> It does not prevent websites from allowing minors to search for censored content censored by the bill, but the text of the "Limitation" still does not allow websites to display content censored by the bill No judge except the most cravenly political would accept that the legislature intended that kids should be able to type things into a search bar but not see the results of the search. That makes no sense and clea…

It's not "desperate" to evaluate a bill by its actual text. Judging by the presumably incorrect language used in Section 3(b)(1) and the ill-considered mandate to "prevent and mitigate" anxiety and depression in Section 3(a)(1), the Kids Online Safety Act is too sloppily written to deserve serious consideration. If the intent of KOSA differs from the text of KOSA, then the bill should be written correctly before it is voted on, since the bill as it is currently written would lead to an endless debate over the intended meaning of its poor phrasing years after its prescribed censorship takes effect.

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#49
post #44
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half the comments in this thread are you systematically writing essay replies to every single person that has raised doubts about this bill. Whats more, you spend significant time blowing smoke up the ass of someone who willingly self identified themselves in here about co-writing the bill themselves, who also replied to other comments in this thread. So we can tell off the bat that there is a vested, devoted, intere…

I noticed that you haven't bothered to reply to any of my reasons for supporting KOSA, or any of the observations about factual inaccuracies or exaggerations in the EFF post. There exist people who disagree with you and who aren't paid PR shills. Like me. I feel strongly about a bill that you don't like. It's possible to have an adult conversation about the merits of the bill without accusing literally everyone who d…

Meta would be thrilled to see KOSA pass, since it the time and effort required to censor any content alleged to trigger anxiety or depression would cause smaller social networks to be infeasible to run. How is a Mastodon instance supposed to operate when its volunteer moderators' workload is compounded by KOSA's censorship mandate?

The EFF has raised many good points about how KOSA's censorship mandate would harm people under 18. Calling the EFF's well-reasoned arguments "FUD" and labeling people who oppose KOSA a "hive mind" is not a substitute for engaging with the facts at hand. If KOSA is as innocuous as you are claiming it is, then explain in detail how a website covered under this bill could "prevent and mitigate" anxiety or depression to comply with the bill without the use of censorship.

The EFF is not the only organization that opposes KOSA. There are over 90 more who have signed this letter condemning KOSA, including the ACLU, Yale Privacy Lab, GLAAD, and the Human Trafficking Prevention Project:

https://www.fightforthefuture.org/news/2022-11-28-letter-90-...

Re: Senate panel advances bills to childproof the internet

#50
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> addictive product features What does this mean? All computer interaction is potentially addictive.

True. The text is "patterns of use that indicate or encourage addiction-like behaviors". It's broad but careful wording. The FTC and courts will have to decide the exact meaning. I think "encourage" is clear enough and pretty obviously something we should regulate, since it signals intent. The implication of the word "indicate" is more ambiguous.

> courts will have to decide the exact meaning.

This doesn't concern you?

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