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It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

fredandrandall.com

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Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#71

Post by zanny »

As a soon-to-be grad looking for a job right now, I don't get why nobody ever asks for just code samples.

Its like, here are 5 dozen requirements for the position no human alive currently possesses, now let us talk about everything EXCEPT code.

I'd just say "you want to work for X doing Y using Z? Show us some code samples of what you have done in the past".

And I would hope it would not always be "show us code samples using this tech for what we are trying to do" because then I already wrote your back end for you, apparently. I have a good ~30k lines of code I have written in college for both courses and freelance, and it all seems to sit in a folder of stuff I have since nobody ever wants code samples.

There is the flip side, that people could copy paste someone elses work to try to claim as their own code to get a foot in the door. Dunno how to deal with that. Maybe just ask for some 1 day assignment. If you are a web company, have them build a simple table in django using some database. Or something just to show they know what you are talking about.

But the rapid fire graph search and various sorting implementation questions and how do you use insert X random algorithm in convoluted way Y to achieve random result Z drive me crazy.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#72

Post by jrockway »

johnnyg wrote: post #24

From the other side of the desk, what I am most afraid of is letting someone with weak coding or technical chops through the door. It destroys teams. Yes, culture fit is important as is someone who really likes to program and build. You get to that after you've established that the person can code. I'm not talking about the google "how many jelly beans in a bus" thing either. I'm talking "what is an inner join", "wha…

I'm not talking about the google "how many jelly beans in a bus" thing either.

Google interviewers are strongly discouraged from asking questions like this.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#73

Post by wyclif »

RandallBrown wrote: post #68
wyclif wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

It's not that people are having trouble with people accepting offers. They're never getting to that point because they don't think anyone is qualified.

I'm simply pointing out that the oft-heard complaint from the other side of the table is flawed. I very often hear startups complaining of talent shortages. This is false.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#74

Post by georgieporgie »

pavanky wrote: post #49
georgieporgie wrote: post #33

A few years ago, I applied to a senior Windows dev position. As I recall, they needed someone primarily to port existing software. One of the first interview questions was about how I would optimize shell sort for some particular edge case. The interviewer did not appear to have any papers with her that contained shell sort. I don't know if she thought I would remember it (last time I implemented it was high school),…

Boy, are you wrong! http://research.fhda.edu/Planning/2010-20%20EMP%20Demographi...

Er. Unless I missed something, you seem to have posted a link about population demographics.

I lived in Oakland for five years, among a considerable number of black people. San Francisco, just a few miles away, has a sizable (but shrinking) black population. How many blacks do you suppose I worked with in tech? (It's two, if you're wondering, and one came to the company from D.C.)

Local demographic isn't very well correlated with professional employment, particularly in tech.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#75

Post by RandallBrown »

sheraz wrote: post #51

From the comments here, and in other similar posts, the HN community seems to think only one side of the interview process is broken. I posit that all sides are broken -- yes -- the recruiters, the hiring companies, and YOU, the engineer/marketer/whatever you are. I'm only going to address the one part that matters -- you. Who cares how qualified you are? You think that entitles you to a job? Gimme a break!!! Do me a…

You can't just "skip HR" at lots of companies. You can't get a coffee with someone that lives across the country. These techniques work GREAT for some jobs, but not at all for others.

I don't feel entitled to work somewhere because I'm qualified. I feel that if I'm qualified and would be a good fit, that the company should want to hire me. The problem is that they often don't get a good picture of how qualified I am or how good of a fit I could be. That is the problem.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#76

Post by jrockway »

danbmil99 wrote: post #34

I think Google set technical recruiting back a few decades. Their process is and always has been ridiculous, but because they are so successful, everyone is copying it. I propose that Google is successful in spite of their vaunted hiring process, not because of it.

I think Google's process is great. The result of the process is a bunch of people that are very easy to work with and smart. I never even have to think about rephrasing something or explaining it more simply; everyone operates at or above my level. The result is a very stress-free work environment where a lot of work gets done quickly. (Except when Google decides to buy out a ski resort and send us there for a couple days. Less code being committed then :)

The process does produce many false negatives, but that's much better than false positives. Hiring one bad employee can make many people miserable. Not hiring one good employee only makes one person unhappy. And they can interview again anyway.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#78

Post by sheraz »

RandallBrown wrote: post #75
sheraz wrote: post #51

From the comments here, and in other similar posts, the HN community seems to think only one side of the interview process is broken. I posit that all sides are broken -- yes -- the recruiters, the hiring companies, and YOU, the engineer/marketer/whatever you are. I'm only going to address the one part that matters -- you. Who cares how qualified you are? You think that entitles you to a job? Gimme a break!!! Do me a…

You can't just "skip HR" at lots of companies. You can't get a coffee with someone that lives across the country. These techniques work GREAT for some jobs, but not at all for others. I don't feel entitled to work somewhere because I'm qualified. I feel that if I'm qualified and would be a good fit, that the company should want to hire me. The problem is that they often don't get a good picture of how qualified I am…

1. I've never seen a company where HR was impenetrable.

2. For cross-continental meetings, substitute coffee for phone call. Or serendipitously turn up at a conference, a panel, or in the executive wash room. This is all the easier with twitter and 4-square. Hustling is not stalking according to my attorney :-)

3. Companies don't hire you. People hire you. It is your job to get PEOPLE interested in you, and that does not come from a resume, qualifications, or any other credential. Those are incidentals and formalities "after the fact."

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#79

Post by jarek »

jrockway wrote: post #76
danbmil99 wrote: post #34

I think Google set technical recruiting back a few decades. Their process is and always has been ridiculous, but because they are so successful, everyone is copying it. I propose that Google is successful in spite of their vaunted hiring process, not because of it.

I think Google's process is great. The result of the process is a bunch of people that are very easy to work with and smart. I never even have to think about rephrasing something or explaining it more simply; everyone operates at or above my level. The result is a very stress-free work environment where a lot of work gets done quickly. (Except when Google decides to buy out a ski resort and send us there for a couple…

> I never even have to think about rephrasing something or explaining it more simply; everyone operates at or above my level.

This implies some others have to think about rephrasing or explaining more simply when speaking with you.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#80

Post by RandallBrown »

johnnyg wrote: post #24

From the other side of the desk, what I am most afraid of is letting someone with weak coding or technical chops through the door. It destroys teams. Yes, culture fit is important as is someone who really likes to program and build. You get to that after you've established that the person can code. I'm not talking about the google "how many jelly beans in a bus" thing either. I'm talking "what is an inner join", "wha…

I don't think many companies do the puzzle questions anymore. Microsoft was famous for it, but they've stopped (at least for me).
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