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How India Became America

nytimes.com

31–40 of 97 posts

Re: How India Became America

#31
India is a big, diverse country in terms of people, culture and economy. The article is pigeonholing a country with over a billion people in sparse categories. Any article talking about "India" is mostly generalizing based on a small dataset.

The filty rich, people dressed in filty clothes, and "people in between" co-exist in India. The first experience of India starts right where the airport ends - the crowd of touts and cabs fighting for your attention will come as quite a shock if you haven't faced it already.

The divide between rich and poor will become more profound once you leave the airport and enter the city. One second you are in a neighourhood rivaling the most plush cities in the world, another you are standing by a heap of garbage, watching children in rags hunting the trash for recyclable objects which they sell to earn their living.

India, specially the big cities, are complete chaos, owing to their large population. Someone from a quite neighourhood will be a bit taken aback when he is subjected to insane amounts of traffic accompanied with honking. For the most roads, you will have to jaywalk. However, don't concern yourself too much, as this is standard practice and drivers are used to it.

Apart from the traffic, cows and other animals roaming the strets isn't uncommon. They are big, but mostly harmless.

As far as society goes, the Indian society takes pride in being closely knit and valuing familial values. You will find people living with their parents, which is very uncommon in the west. Also, people don't display intimacy in public - even married people generally keep distance. On the other hand, boys with hands over other boys' shoulders, and girls holding each others' hands is a common sight.

Also note that the Indian states differ in culture at the macro level, and the country loves to fragment itself at both macro and micro levels. People from the northern part of India(believed to be Arayn descendents) and people from southern India(believed to be Dravidian descendents) are an example of culture difference at a macro level, and Tamil(South Indian) brahmins differentiating themselves from Non-brahmins is an example at a micro level.

India, as a country, has a different sense of privacy and personal space. People will ask all sorts of personal questions, without meaning any offence. It's just the Indian version of small talk, and they feel delighted if the same questions are asked of them.

Talk about programmers - you will find the bell curve at work. But since the number of people who are supposedly programmers is large, and you mostly come across the middle of the normal distribution, it's easy to get the impression that most people are incompetent.

Re: How India Became America

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues." So does America. The point of the article is that there are some very uniquely American things - consumerism, fast-food, Starbucks, etc. - that have infiltrated Indian culture. I interpreted it as an observation independent of a value judgment.

Those issues will always exist everywhere. The key is that in India, they are orders of magnitude worse.

It's got many, many more people. I'm sure I would be boggled by the logistical problems simply of running the public transportation system in a large city. It's not easy to do things at large scale, as we've learned with Web development.

Re: How India Became America

#33
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to imply that none of the "elites" in India have sought to improve the situation with regard to poverty and literacy. This is an unfair position. There may be corruption, apathy and so on, which impede progress along these lines. But there were similar problems in London, New York and Chicago not too long ago (and in American cities there still are such problems). So it would a double standard to say the lea…

I don't imply that there is no charity in India, but I suggest that when the country habors one third of the worlds poor that there is a way to go. I find your argument strange if you don't recognize the magnitude of India's poverty compared to the U.S. and Western Europe. My beef with the article is that it in no ways recognizes this problem.

India harbors a large percentage of the world's population; it's not surprising that it has many of the world's poor people. That India is poorer than the US and western Europe cannot be denied. I've been there, and I've seen the poverty. But the challenges it's dealing with are huge. And I don't think criticism from the bleachers will do much to improve the situation.

Re: How India Became America

#35
post #27

As an Indian who has spent all but two years of his life in India, when I read stories like this I think of two possibilities: 1. Propaganda by affluent and successful Indians claiming the country is as successful as they are. 2. Westerners overstating Indian progress to feel more comfortable that there is a friendly and reliable challenger to China from the developing world. I don't know, I may be wrong on both coun…

>the reality is that we are a dirt poor country with not just deep institutional problems, but also moral and psychological ones. I was searching for the words to express this for more than ten minutes before I read your comment. The key here is 'moral and psychological problems'. To cite just one example, there was a lot of ruckus about the 2G Scam and the Lokpal bill recently. We believe that the guy who got 17200…

A bigger problem is the insane benefits someone rich can reap with just a savings account in India. The large interest rates that you get in the State Bank and the enormous loopholes that everyone exploits essentially means that there's an entire class of people whose interest earned on savings is sufficient to land them in the top 5% of the population.

Why would anyone be motivated to take risks after such a deal ?

Also, no government can solve India's problem. 600 people (few uneducated, several underqualified and some with a shady past) to make decisions for a diverse 1 bn population? That doesn't scale in any way whatsoever.

Re: How India Became America

#36
Link bait title. The author is advertising his upcoming book.

The gist of the article is that anything other than Socialism is 'American'. Since when houses with concrete roofs, foreign brands, shopping malls, office buildings and being optimistic represent only America? The author needs to travel other parts of the world.

Articles like this which draw parallels between two countries often do disservice to both the countries. America is not all about consumerism and India is not all about a poor imitation of America.

Re: How India Became America

#37
I came across this article last summer, also featured in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/world/asia/09gurgaon.html?...

I think it is a much better analysis and look at the underlying issues that plague India as it struggles to deal with modernization and globalization. The article in this post wasn't quite an analysis but more of a description or summarization of the what is happening. The article from last summer, while it doesn't exactly cover the same scope and exact subject matter, focuses on many of the same phenomenon. Definitely worth checking out.

Re: How India Became America

#38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the reality is that we are a dirt poor country with not just deep institutional problems, but also moral and psychological ones. I was searching for the words to express this for more than ten minutes before I read your comment. The key here is 'moral and psychological problems'. To cite just one example, there was a lot of ruckus about the 2G Scam and the Lokpal bill recently. We believe that the guy who got 17200…

A bigger problem is the insane benefits someone rich can reap with just a savings account in India. The large interest rates that you get in the State Bank and the enormous loopholes that everyone exploits essentially means that there's an entire class of people whose interest earned on savings is sufficient to land them in the top 5% of the population. Why would anyone be motivated to take risks after such a deal ?…

Well, one can get many multiples of the investment if they focus on real estate as opposed to the savings account. The rich are indeed getting fabulously rich.

And all the while the conditions of the real poor are in fact getting worse. And as someone whose family/ community falls into the capitalist class I see condition of most of the employees degrading first hand. The so called middle class is in some sense living in a bubble, working semi-coolie jobs for MNCs (for the most part) and thinking that their more hip lifestyles are in some ways representative of a sea change in India.

Re: How India Became America

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those issues will always exist everywhere. The key is that in India, they are orders of magnitude worse.

It's got many, many more people. I'm sure I would be boggled by the logistical problems simply of running the public transportation system in a large city. It's not easy to do things at large scale, as we've learned with Web development.

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