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It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

fredandrandall.com

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Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#61

Post by ef4 »

RandallBrown wrote: post #11
kenjackson wrote: post #8

Yes, there is something wrong. I had a good friend put himself on the job market six months ago. He has the total package -- has worked on and shipped well-known products, has reviewable open-source projects and contributions, great academic pedigree, nice guy, even good looking -- I said something like, "You'll have five offers at the end of this week". Three months later, no offer. What was most interesting was how…

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. I had decent luck with just applying online, but with the couple companies where I got a referral, things moved much faster. I've always thought that the software industry is one of the few things you can get into without having a really good network (although it definitely helps).

You can get into it without a network. But only because there are several excellent ways to bootstrap a network (like open source).

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#62

Post by wyclif »

lekus wrote: post #38
athst wrote: post #29

I like the point about how randomness seems to be such a big part of the process. If you're not using connections and are applying through normal channels, to me it seems like there is so much that can go wrong that isn't related to your ability to do the job. Maybe the recruiter had a bunch of email that day and missed the application. Maybe the person who screened your email didn't like the font or design of your r…

It will never improve until there is a "real" shortage in the market.

See the Pardo Axiom I posted above.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#63

Post by suresk »

danbmil99 wrote: post #34

I think Google set technical recruiting back a few decades. Their process is and always has been ridiculous, but because they are so successful, everyone is copying it. I propose that Google is successful in spite of their vaunted hiring process, not because of it.

To be fair, before them it was Microsoft. I worked at a place once that brought in a few ex-Microsoft execs and managers, and the end result was a dev hiring process that worked roughly like Microsoft's - despite us not having access to the same size of talent pool or really needing that many high-end engineers.

The end result was that we ended up having a harder time hiring, missed out on some good people, and hired some people we shouldn't have - all because we were hiring for Microsoft, not our organization.

Unfortunately, pretty much any high-profile, successful tech company will have its hiring methods replicated, even if they aren't a good fit for the company that is borrowing them. Hiring is one of the most important aspects of running a company - effectively outsourcing that responsibility via rote copying of another company's methods is a mistake.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#64

Post by philwelch »

danbmil99 wrote: post #34

I think Google set technical recruiting back a few decades. Their process is and always has been ridiculous, but because they are so successful, everyone is copying it. I propose that Google is successful in spite of their vaunted hiring process, not because of it.

Google's process seems to have two parts: very tough interviews designed to produce false negatives in exchange for almost no false positives, and the necessary reputation, benefits, and pay to attract more than enough talent. The problem is that most companies manage to pull off the tough hiring process, but don't have enough of a funnel to filter through.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#65

Post by ef4 »

kenjackson wrote: post #8

Yes, there is something wrong. I had a good friend put himself on the job market six months ago. He has the total package -- has worked on and shipped well-known products, has reviewable open-source projects and contributions, great academic pedigree, nice guy, even good looking -- I said something like, "You'll have five offers at the end of this week". Three months later, no offer. What was most interesting was how…

> But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary

This is just one of those unavoidable aspects of human psychology. Ignore it at your peril.

Lots of programmers seem to think networking is somehow beneath them. But it's the best way to sidestep most of the pitfalls everyone is amply describing here.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#66

Post by suresk »

randomdata wrote: post #39
RandallBrown wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to passive-agressively mention this to our HR department and my old job all the time. The basic "Software Engineer" posting has "At least 3 years of desktop or server software development" as a requirement. I always liked to point out that I (and everyone else they hired out of college) wasn't qualified for the jobs we were doing. They're in Michigan, so finding development talent is a little bit harder so I d…

> they're discouraging college students from applying by having pointless job requirements that don't actually matter. From the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm always amazed at the jobs that slap on the computer science degree requirement. My small rural municipal government was recently looking for a web developer to work on their CMS. A CS degree was a requirement for the job, despite there being very little pure…

Playing devil's advocate here a little bit - If you were a small organization with little technical expertise, how would you hire developers?

As someone who doesn't have a CS degree, I agree that it is frustrating to see hard requirements like this. But looking at it from the perspective of your "small rural municipal government", hiring developers is probably a pretty tough and scary endeavor. Lots of people hold themselves out as developers, and frankly, a lot of them are pretty bad at it.

How do you tell the bad ones from the competent ones? A CS degree at least gives you the guarantee that they at least had some training.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#67

Post by eshvk »

ef4 wrote: post #56
eshvk wrote: post #21

The other problem that I found annoying when interviewing (even with Startups) is the way the whole system is organized. 1. Talk to recruiter who is a non-tech person who doesn't really know what they are talking about and to whom you cannot really go in deep. This is the only casual conversation that you get to have about the company. (Assuming you don't know anyone there..) 2. Have phone screens which are that exac…

> I used to wish there was a way I could talk to an engineer in a company over coffee There is. You offer to buy them coffee. In practice, this is actually how much of business (and that includes hiring) gets done. The whole "Send resume, pass phone screen, do interview, get offer" thing is more the exception than the rule, especially for really desirable jobs.

It's kind of hard to be a struggling grad student in Austin and offer to buy engineers in San Francisco coffee. :-) However, having said that, what you say does make a lot of sense.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#68

Post by RandallBrown »

wyclif wrote: post #60
jnbiche wrote: post #3

This, exactly. I keep reading about this huge shortage of qualified developers, but I've now met enough talented developers looking for work -- who are reliable and talented, and not assholes, that I know that the standard line about a talent shortage can't be true. Perhaps it's an issue in and around the Valley, but it's not in most of the rest of the country. If you're having trouble hiring in the US outside of SF,…

"There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

It's not that people are having trouble with people accepting offers. They're never getting to that point because they don't think anyone is qualified.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#69

Post by eshvk »

mooreds wrote: post #50
eshvk wrote: post #21

The other problem that I found annoying when interviewing (even with Startups) is the way the whole system is organized. 1. Talk to recruiter who is a non-tech person who doesn't really know what they are talking about and to whom you cannot really go in deep. This is the only casual conversation that you get to have about the company. (Assuming you don't know anyone there..) 2. Have phone screens which are that exac…

Isn't #3 what your network is for?

My school was filled with either folks who went and worked for Google/FB or disappeared to work for large embedded systems firms. I wanted to work for a start up doing machine learning.

Re: It's not a talent shortage, it's a hiring problem

#70

Post by yason »

kenjackson wrote: post #8

Yes, there is something wrong. I had a good friend put himself on the job market six months ago. He has the total package -- has worked on and shipped well-known products, has reviewable open-source projects and contributions, great academic pedigree, nice guy, even good looking -- I said something like, "You'll have five offers at the end of this week". Three months later, no offer. What was most interesting was how…

But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary.

Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are.

Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working But the fact that someone who I would actually describe as top 1% of devs I've worked with can't get a job without relying on his network is kind of scary.

Isn't it expected and the way things have worked? Friends give friends who give you jobs. Applying blind is like the shotgun approach because the relationship between you and the candidate company is nonexistent and has no context. If you're a friend of Jack's from his previous company, you're already someone and you come from somewhere. Doesn't necessarily make sense, but that's how people are.

Further, exceptionally good programmers hang around with other exceptionally good programmers and in companies that have an eye for exceptionally good culture. Now, where's the link to your generic Big Co to which you send your application? Colleagues? Generally no. Management? I don't think so. Name of the exceptionally good company? Hardly unless one of the big global names. You get to keep the badges you're known for? Not really, because the field is different. Would you recognize a good CEO based on the small company he was working for? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field.

My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am. ? Even if the small company is the technical leader of designing pressure valves? And you're hiring him for the position of a CEO in a game company? He might be the rockstar CEO but you don't know the field.

My friend is a manager in a big consulting company. We talked and I suggested I probably wouldn't pass the hiring process of his company, eventhough I work for a lot more high-end technical company and would beat most of his employees technically. He was a bit stumbled but slowly realized it might be true. (And that he might not get into our company, despite his senior experience.) It's a whole different world there than where I am.

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