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A world where people pay for software

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Re: A world where people pay for software

#521

Post by nyanpasu64 »

pzo wrote: post #349
nyanpasu64 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a plug-and-play way to install services like (front-ends) BreezeWiki, Rimgo, Nitter, and Invidious, and (self-hosted) Miniflux, Gitea, a centralized Syncthing node, and an image sync tool (possibly Immich), onto an old laptop I own, without messing with users, groups, AUR builds, upgrading between Postgres versions... like a world where sandstorm.io had taken off. Then access them on any of my devices, like Ta…

Haven't tried this project yet but my plan is to buy cheap hp elitedesk / dell optiplex thin client and just install umbrelOS [0] that has app store with many of those apps such as: homebridge, home assistant, pihole, trailscale, gitea, syncthing, vaultwarden, nextcloud etc. [0] https://umbrel.com/

Umbrel's homepage seems uncomfortably slick, they're selling hardware but the OS is free to use. The app store seems to have more cryptocurrency apps than I'd expect from a general-purpose self-hosting service, and lacks Miniflux, Breezewiki, and Rimgo, though it has Invidious, Nitter, and Syncthing. And the OS seems to live under a noncommercial-only license (https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.md). Overall the vibes seem to run somewhat in conflict with the "by the community, for the community" ethos I'm more interested in. Perhaps if I have the free time (haha when?) I might see if I can polish up Sandstorm for my personal uses, or if it's more work than juggling Docker containers or AUR packages.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#522

Post by GoblinSlayer »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #332
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #306

Computers have an unprecedented ability to reproduce value for free. Programmers need a relatively fixed amount of resources to thrive. (The value of resources varies by location but we all need things like food, shelter, transportation, clothing, tools, etc etc) If we can find a way to make sure every person has what they need to thrive regardless of their income, programmers can open source all of their software an…

One problem is that most necessary projects aren’t fun, and most fun projects aren’t necessary. Does anyone design dishwashers as a hobby, as an easy example? How do you propose we motivate people to do work that isn’t fun? Currently the carrot of higher pay or ownership in a more valuable thing is doing that, so we would need something to replace it if that goes away.

I guess nonposix shells are not fun since there are so few of them. Or maybe it's just me that posix shell has poor ergonomics?

Re: A world where people pay for software

#523

Post by ForHackernews »

Chris2048 wrote: post #516
Niksko wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You iterate, as with everything.

It took/is taking a long while to develop self-driving cars, despite the money and big players chasing it. How long will a fat-berg shark take-a-to-make-a? Also, think of the people who might help you with this - sewer-diving experts! You are essentially collaborating with them to displace their own roles.

I used to work in retail stocking shelves. 1000% I would have happily collaborated on developing a shelf-stocking robot... if I got paid something for it.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#524

Post by pzo »

nyanpasu64 wrote: post #521
pzo wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't tried this project yet but my plan is to buy cheap hp elitedesk / dell optiplex thin client and just install umbrelOS [0] that has app store with many of those apps such as: homebridge, home assistant, pihole, trailscale, gitea, syncthing, vaultwarden, nextcloud etc. [0] https://umbrel.com/

Umbrel's homepage seems uncomfortably slick, they're selling hardware but the OS is free to use. The app store seems to have more cryptocurrency apps than I'd expect from a general-purpose self-hosting service, and lacks Miniflux, Breezewiki, and Rimgo, though it has Invidious, Nitter, and Syncthing. And the OS seems to live under a noncommercial-only license ( https://github.com/getumbrel/umbrel/blob/master/LICENSE.…

I have seen also another similar project that some people also recommended in case you interested in the future (looks less sleek but still not bad):

casaOS : https://casaos.io/

Re: A world where people pay for software

#525

Post by Barrin92 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #518
Barrin92 wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All property rights are legal fiction, there's no "actual property rights". Owning ideas is perfectly reasonable because that's where the entire value is, and having rights to your own ideas guarantees that you are compensated for the invention and value they provide to others. Property rights, intellectual and non-intellectual, correctly allocate resources to value creators.

What if an idea has value independent from an inventor e.g. someone invents it independently. Novel-ty of invention is hard to prove. There is a strong incentive towards rent-seeking beyond the collaborative value invention is supposed to provide. There are "actual property rights" because an actual property is an actual property - owning one house doesn't mean you own them all. An idea is an abstract "property" that…

there's strong incentive towards rent-seeking in all property schemes. The oldest form of rent seeking literally does concern physical property, land and real estate. Rent seeking is bad and common but eliminating property rights is worse, some have tried. And you generally can't own abstract ideas, you can't own the number '5', or 'wizard stories', only a particular logo design or Harry Potter. IP is only concerned with specific artifacts. They're intangible but not abstract, they're instantiations of ideas.

If you produce intellectual work there are really only three ways to do that. Give it away for free and beg and provide services, accept some sort of feudal patronage (now reinvented on the internet) or have rights to what you make. The last one is the only thing that gives creators independence and compensates them directly, even if yes you have to settle subjective differences sometimes.

Anyone who wants to abolish IP needs to tell me how a novelist earns a living without being reduced to some sort of begging.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#526

Post by Chris2048 »

guidoism wrote: post #406
derefr wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there would be very many programmers in such a world? Personally, I think that a lot of people who right now go into programming "because it's a good career", would instead do things that are equally creative but also capture other things high on the Maslow hierarchy — e.g. fame. Personally, despite enthusiastically enjoying my programming career and puzzle-oriented problem-solving more generally, I'm st…

My (honestly non-snarky) answer is: who cares? Do we really need all of the programmers that are currently being employed? Will society collapse if there aren't 100,000 working on the next photo sharing app? The important stuff will get done. Anything that is a luxury will get done only if someone wants to do it for themselves or if someone can convince another person to do it. Money doesn't need to disappear under a…

> My (honestly non-snarky) answer

> 100,000 working on the next photo sharing app?

hmm..

There are plenty of programmers that don't work for FB et al companies. A lot of modern infrastructure depends of custom software.

We probably don't need Twitter (although the cultural impact of SMN might be important e.g. #meetoo, arab-spring etc).

> The important stuff will get done.

Yes, it will. You know how? Because the importance will inspire more money to be offered.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#527

Post by Chris2048 »

bee_rider wrote: post #388
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #306

Computers have an unprecedented ability to reproduce value for free. Programmers need a relatively fixed amount of resources to thrive. (The value of resources varies by location but we all need things like food, shelter, transportation, clothing, tools, etc etc) If we can find a way to make sure every person has what they need to thrive regardless of their income, programmers can open source all of their software an…

We should guarantee minimum income, and abolish intellectual property. Build an economy around actually doing things rather than calling dibs on solutions. Let the market sort out the doing of things, just make sure everyone can participate.

> Build an economy around actually doing things rather than calling dibs on solutions.

If I design something, how do I get compensated for the work if anyone can clone the work? Why is manufacturing counted as "compensated actually-doing-something" while design/R&D isn't?

Re: A world where people pay for software

#528

Post by Chris2048 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #517
Chris2048 wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably they mean "every leftist that holds this opinion , I've talked to", not "every leftist I've ever talked to".

That's a charitable reading given they literally wrote the latter, not the former.

A charitable reading requires fair consideration.

First, they didn't literally write the latter:

A: every leftist I've talked to

B: every leftist I've ever talked to

Second, if true, would imply that every leftist they've ever talked to will always get asked "who will run the garbage system, and who will clean the sewer" which wouldn't make sense outside the context of having given a specific opinion on a specific topic first.

Hence the topic of conversation is implied as context.

Re: A world where people pay for software

#529

Post by Chris2048 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #464
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #306

Computers have an unprecedented ability to reproduce value for free. Programmers need a relatively fixed amount of resources to thrive. (The value of resources varies by location but we all need things like food, shelter, transportation, clothing, tools, etc etc) If we can find a way to make sure every person has what they need to thrive regardless of their income, programmers can open source all of their software an…

I’ve been writing ship software, for my entire career. Most times, I’ve been quite involved in the entire process; from napkin sketch to shrinkwrap. For me, it is quite gratifying to ship, but for many people, the 50% (or more) of shipping software that is non-coding work, isn’t fun, and is usually deprecated, during the planning process. Examples are things like end-user documentation (not just maintenance docs), tr…

see https://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html

Re: A world where people pay for software

#530

Post by geocar »

Chris2048 wrote: post #514
geocar wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you be so bothered to just let them? Would you feel embarrassed that "leftists" are nicer? That can be a motivation too! I know some people just show up so they can have someone to talk to for a few hours on a Saturday. I think if you can't find volunteers, you can have a lottery.

> you can have a lottery what happens if the lottery "winners" refuse?

Many western countries use a lottery to choose juries.

If the winners refuse, they'll have a chance to explain themselves, and then they'll be judged by those who didn't refuse. Exactly what happens next depends.

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